This file is one of the Wolfstone archives of the Halloween mailing lists. You can find out more, and reach the entire collection here: http://www.pobox.com/~wolfstone/_r/HalloweenArchive.html This particular archive deals with "pneumatic" topics. This includes: o compressors o commercial-quality air cylinders o improvised air cylinders - - - - - From: Orniske Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:28:08 EST Subject: Re: HALL: Routing compressed air In a message dated 4/2/98 6:19:02 PM, you wrote: >Any tips on using compressed air for these purposes (or just in general) >are much appreciated! I read through the archive on compressed air, but I >could use some more specific information. Read: http://members.aol.com/phanmech/air.html I don't believe it's in Don's archives, and it mentions a few hints you might not have seen yet. Industrial solenoid valves/manifolds/actuators/etc. are available via the ubiquitous and inexpensive C&H (surplus) Sales (1-0880-325-9465) - - - - - From: "Fields, Karl" To: "'halloween-l at majordomo.netcom.com'" Subject: RE: HALL: Routing compressed air Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:27:46 -0500 Jim & Mike Triangle Machinery and Tool Company 1051 Commercial San Jose (Santa Clara?) (408) 452-8666 All they carry is used stuff, but boy is there a lot of it! Plan on at least a half day, wear old clothes. Looks like everything has come from factories, machine shops or assembly lines. Most of the stuff I don't have a clue what is was in it's previous life, but there are endless possibilities. Not the kind of place that would have a catalog, nor would they probably be much help over the phone. Seems to be a lack of understanding for English (or Spanish). I've not used a reservoir. I think that would really depend on the volume of air a device is using. A quick spurt to multiple pistons every so often isn't a problem, usually. We've driven some awful big pistons over a long run with only 1/4" line. I usually run a 3/8" hose to a manifold, and then branch off 1/4" from there to the effect. We did have an issue this year with our cannon ball "impacts" into the pool. It seems that the closer to the exit (which was underwater) the valve was, the more 'umph' the air had, I.E. bigger splash. This probably could have been solved with a reservoir, as the distance back to the compressor was about 100'. I used 3/8" all the way on this, but had 110VAC solenoids that I didn't really want to get too wet! BTW, bought a used compressor last year from a dentist. They used it to run drills and all that other stuff. Tank is a little bigger than a basket ball, but it is really quiet. Big mufflers and the motor is all shock mounted. 10' away you can hardly hear it. Mike, I'll trade this good info for your Graymark kit color organ info - please! - - - - - Subject: RE: HALL: Routing compressed air Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:51:02 -0800 From: Mike Wakerly To: "Halloween" On 4/2/98 9:27 PM, Fields, Karl wrote: >Jim & Mike > >Triangle Machinery and Tool Company >1051 Commercial >San Jose (Santa Clara?) >(408) 452-8666 > >All they carry is used stuff, but boy is there a lot of it! Plan on at least >a half day, wear old clothes. Looks like everything has come from factories, >machine shops or assembly lines. Most of the stuff I don't have a clue what >is was in it's previous life, but there are endless possibilities. <> Thanks a lot for the great info! Quite useful! >Mike, I'll trade this good info for your Graymark kit color organ info - >please! Well, let's see... They've been around since 1965, so my 1990 catalog should probably still be accurate.... Phone: 800-854-7393 Mailing address is: Box 5020 Santa Ana, CA 92704 The catalog lists a 3-channel (hi-mid-lo) color organ for $10.45 + PC Board for $3.25. The cabinet is $3.50, which brings your total to $18.20. Should be about right for today's prices. The plans I have are apparently published by Electronic Kits International (EKI). Alternatively, you can do a Hotbot search for 'color organ', which will (among other things) point you to plans/kit for a $12 one-channel color organ. Let me know if you need any other info. I'll see if I can find my 'organ and test it out! - - - - - From: "Fields, Karl" Subject: RE: HALL: Building an Air Ram Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:48:56 -0400 Mike. Very good article/pics on TCT in the archives, toward bottom of page under Plans http://www.calweb.com/~bertino/halloween.html#MainHArch Under the Grave Jumper the gjump2a.jpg is great detail of the closer. Only changes we made were using a 1/4" pipe to compression fitting into the exhaust of the closer. Unless you are pretty good at plumbing, I would suggest you don't initially use a bleeder. Our first ones had enough air leakage under power that the bleeder was unnecessary. Heed the warnings of PSI LIMITS! - - - - - Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:27:33 -0500 From: Bill Steele Subject: RE: HALL: cheaper air? >Biggest problem would probably be the lack of a reservoir. >> >> >Speaking of air compressors, what about the cheap compressors sold in >> the >> >automotive departments of stores >> The automotive departments of stores also sell cheap air tanks. - - - - - Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:24:03 -0700 From: FPS24 Subject: HALL: Re: cheaper air? Bill Steele wrote: > > >Biggest problem would probably be the lack of a reservoir. > >> > >> >Speaking of air compressors, what about the cheap compressors sold in > >> the > >> >automotive departments of stores > >> > > The automotive departments of stores also sell cheap air tanks. > > Bill Steele > ws21@cornell.edu FYI: Alot of those compressor used to pump up tires have a bleed off valve set at 40psi so it will never be higher than that. Also the motors burn up real good if left on for along time. :( - - - - - Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:20:47 -0700 From: Bob Andrews Subject: Re: HALL: cheaper air? mrscary at kiva.net wrote: > Save your $$ and get a -real- one with a tank...Sears and other places have > good ones for under $250.00. > Trust me, a good compressor is -worth- it's weight in gold! I have to agree with that. Wife-woman bought a airbrush compressor for my birthday last year. It's 4hp, 7 gal tank and cost ~$130 at Costco. It's great--for airbrushing. I'm going to get a 6hp/60 gallon tank $320 for Halloween this year. If you run more than a couple of air powered props, you really need the capacity. But I'll still use it for spray painting props. - - - - - From: Spookyfx Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:00:38 EDT Subject: Re: HALL: cheaper air? In a message dated 98-04-13 13:28:41 EDT, you write: > > The automotive departments of stores also sell cheap air tanks. > > Bill Steele > ws21@cornell.edu > If you used a foot or hand pump, you can use plastic soda botles or use the plastic bug spray tanks (find them in the garded section of target) These tanks cost about $15 and COME WITH A PUMP! You can generate about 20 psi. If you use the OAR as a air ram this works well! This was ALMOST the design I used for my Self contained Zombie POP ups. BUT! This will only be good for ONE air effect. I still think you should get the compressor... - - - - - Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:24:47 -0500 From: "Edwin Wise" Subject: Re: HALL: Valves, Cylinders On 4/23/99, at 9:58 AM, Rus Hardy wrote: >2, 3, or 4 way electronic valves. Depends on the need -- a 2-way valve has only two ports... in and out... and is a simple on/off switch.Ê It would allow you to blow air, but that's it. A 3-way gives three ports -- so the valve chooses between two pathways through the valve, allowing a charge and discharge cycle, good for spring return cylinders. The 4-way,2-position valves give power out and power return... 4-way 3-position give power out, center hold, power return. There are other choices... >Double acting or spring return cylinders. I always use double-acting, since it gives me full control both directions. >What is the preferred throw for the cylinder??? That so entirely depends on the situation... you can use a short, fat cylinder to get almost identical behavior to a skinny long cylinder by using mechanical advantage, so it depends on your "packaging" needs. I tend to use 6" throw, though, because it's what I have. >Any help appreciated. Also -- find a Parker Pneumatics distributor in your area and get their catalog.Ê Or a Clippard -- they have faster, smaller, cheaper valves good for this.Ê Other people use Mac valves, and there are really dozens of pneumatics manufacturers, so find a friendly distributor in your area and they can help you lots. I've recently found an "okay" reference to pneumatics on the web at: http://www.rosscontrols.com - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Weight limit on air powered props From: Malcolm Little Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:34:18 -0400 By the same token, one can **USUALLY** tell by the direction of rotation required to increase pressure: If you turn the knob CLOCKWISE to INCREASE pressure, it's likely a regulator. If you turn the knob COUNTER-CLOCKWISE (ANTI-CLOCKWISE for our British friends)to INCREASE pressure, it's likely a flow control. -Malcolm > >Jerry, what's the difference a regulator and air flow device?. If it's = got a > >guage and an adjustment....Inquiring minds and all. > >Karl > > I am not Jerry, :) but have you ever put your finger over the end of a = water > hose to make it spray? Next time, turn the water on to a trickle. There = will > be very little water coming out of the spigot, but if you cover the hose = with > your finger, the pressure will build up until the full house pressure is > in the hose (or your finger gives out). Then when you let go, the water = sprays > out at full pressure for a few seconds, then goes back to trickling out. > > The spigot restricts the flow, but it does not change the pressure that = CAN > build up. > > A regulator works a bit differently. It compares the pressure on the = output > side to the set pressure, say 10 psi, and if it is less than that set 10 = psi > pressure, it turns on. But if the pressure on the output side rises to = greater > than 10 psi, it turns off. So if you cover the end of the hose, the = pressure > will never become greater than 10 psi, even though on the other side of = the > regulator the pressure is 100 psi. -Chuck- - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Door Closers Fot Haunting From: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:17:17 EST I would say between 25 and 50 psi. The most I've gone is 75. I've heard of = people going as high as 150 psi but repeated use will eventually cause the = end of the cylinder to blow off. - - - - - Subject: Another Solenoid Valve issue From: "al james" Date: 11 Feb 00 14:23:32 EST One other thing you might have to consider when purchasing Solenoid valve= s is the size of the orifice. Even though the solenoid valve may have 1/4" pi= pe thread (or larger) inputs and outputs the internal valve may have a built= in restriction. The surplus solenoid valve I used on my Pneumatic Flailer h= ad a 1/16" orifice and when I applied 35 PSI to operate it the arm worked very= slowly. The cure was easy I just disassembled the valve and drilled the orifice to 1/8" which made it operate perfectly. You may not be able to = do this on all types of valves due to how they are constructed, you need the= valve in hand to determine this. The one I used on my Flailer was an ASCO Brand and is a 3 way valve. You= can see the photos at http://www.enter.net/~jurina - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Confusion about Solenoid Valves From: "David Smith" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:27:47 -0500 (EST) Hi, I realize this is not in everyone's budget but I use solenoid valves from grainger.com. They cost about $30. Mcmaster Carr also sells = solenoid valves, some a little cheaper and some more expensive and you = don't have to be a business to buy from them. I know it costs more but I really recommend the 12V variety. You can get a 12V wall wart from radio shack and still use regular wall switches or whatever. It's just safer to be running low voltage power around, especially outside. Also with any solenoid valve you also need fittings and some air tubing. You might also think about using a washing machine solenoid or a = sprinkler solenoid. I haven't tried this myself but I've seen web pages = around that explain how to use them. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Another Solenoid Valve issue From: "David Smith" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:32:39 -0500 (EST) >One other thing you might have to consider when purchasing >Solenoid = valves is >the size of the orifice. Even though the solenoid valve may A really good point, I agree. If you are operating at low pressure but have a lot of air to move, your effect is going to move = really slow. I did something last year with a 5/32" mini valve into a = 1-1/2" cylinder. It was so slow I thought something was wrong. I ended = up replacing it with a bigger 1/8" valve and it worked fine. A valve = meant for water has a bigger orifice than one for air so that might be the = way to go. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Another Solenoid Valve issue From: "Jim Kadel" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:10:27 -0500 Bill Smith et al (not just Al :>), Bill you said you plan to use this solenoid valve to control CO2 from a cylinder and not compressed air? I'm afraid that C&H ain't going to be much help. Compressed air pressures for haunts are usually 150 psi or less, but the pressure that CO2 is under is much, much higher. For this application you'd need a special high pressure solenoid valve ( approx 1000 psi ). Karl Fields knows where to purchase these, but unless you're very lucky at "garage sale" finds, you'll be looking at over $ 100 price tag. I realize you're new, but as we've discussed this problem (automatically controlling CO2 with a solenoid valve), I'll not take up a lot of space = with it now. I'd briefly state that there are also *problems with freeze up* if you use = a regulator valve on the CO2 tank to first reduce the pressure to 100 psi so that a C&H type = solenoid valve might be used. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Another Solenoid Valve issue From: "Bill Smith" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:20:05 +0000 Well, I have been reading some of the posts about freezing up and hiugh pressure, and my solution would be to have an air trap on the hose leading to the regulator, to reduce the temperature, and then feed it from there to the solenoid. What are your thoughts on this? 'm really loath to use compressed air, because I don't want to have to buy a compressor. Filling up a compressed air tank atthe gas station would be nice, but I don't think it would last all night... Bill Well, the cold happens at the regulator and not before. When you take the high-pressure CO2 and reduce it down to low-pressure CO2, it sucks heat to drive the expansion. If it's really really dry CO2, everything AROUND the regulator will get cold, but maybe the insides will be fine. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Another Solenoid Valve issue From: "al james" Date: 11 Feb 00 15:35:13 EST Any specific reason you are using a CO2 cylinder? At work we use a High pressure nitrogen bottle 22002500 PSI with a regulator. This is gaseous nitrogen NOT liquid nitrogen (cold). This gas is found at a welding supp= lys in large tanks which you can rent, some of these places also rent the regulators. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Another Solenoid Valve issue From: "Bill Smith" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:43:15 +0000 I see. And, if I'm using the air trap to dry things off before going to the regulator, and I'm firing the solenoid say, once every two minutes, do you think it would make it? Bill Edwin Wise wrote: > > On 2/11/00, at 12:20 PM, Bill Smith wrote: > > >Well, I have been reading some of the posts about freezing up and hiugh > >pressure, and my solution would be to have an air trap on the hose > >leading to the regulator, to reduce the temperature, and then feed it > >from there to the solenoid. > > Well, the cold happens at the regulator and not before. When you take = the > high-pressure CO2 and reduce it down to low-pressure CO2, it sucks heat = to > drive the expansion. If it's really really dry CO2, everything AROUND = the > regulator will get cold, but maybe the insides will be fine. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Another Solenoid Valve issue From: "Edwin Wise" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:41:24 -0600 On 2/11/00, at 3:35 PM, al james wrote: >Any specific reason you are using a CO2 cylinder? At work we use a High >pressure nitrogen bottle 22002500 PSI with a regulator. This is gaseous >nitrogen NOT liquid nitrogen (cold). This gas is found at a welding supplys >in large tanks which you can rent, some of these places also rent the >regulators. Yeah, you can get nitrogen at obscene pressures -- higher than CO2. But I suspect if you ran large volumes of it, it would still get very cold... = but if it's good and dry, it shouldn't affect your regulator. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Project Question From: "Tim D" Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:02:03 -0800 I have worked with pneumatic cylinders underwater.Ê There are several special design factors. Use double-acting cylinders and four/five port valves to keep water out of the cylinder and have sufficient return force. Use larger bore cylinders to apply the larger forces required to move objects made heavier by water through a viscous fluid. Use fittings that are of compatible metals to reduce electrolytic = corrosion. Use mechanical components that do not require lubrication. Be prepared for regular maintenance and cleaning of wear points and seals. Keep electrical parts, controls, valves, etc. isolated from the water. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: oil-free compressors From: Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:51:04 EST Oil free compresses are cheaper, noisier, they run hotter and have a = shorter duty cycle (they can only run for like 20 minutes straight before they = need to cool off). They probably don't last as long either. I use an oil free compressor to power my air tools and halloween props. Works great, it runs = off 120 volts, 15 amps, and has a 30 gallon tank. Cost me about $400 bucks = about a year ago. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: oil-free compressors From: "Ron Tye" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 16:19:04 If you run a compressor every day (like a gas station) the oil free compressors (OFC) will wear out sooner; but, replacing the warn parts is cheep and eazy. Oiled compressors (OC) stand up to hard use better; but, = are more expensive and dificult to rebuild. You can kill an OC VERY QUICKLY if you let it run dry. I realy like OFC's. Small, light weight, lots of output (depends on which one you get), easily portable and for the weekend warier and home haunter they'll last forever. Ron >From: "Malcolm Little" >Reply-To: "Halloween List" >To: "'Halloween List'" >Subject: RE: Hall: oil-free compressors >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:27:05 -0500 > >There is more to it, but as a rule, oil-free compressors >are cheaper, but FAR more noisy. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: oil-free compressors From: "Bill Steele" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:44:15 -0500 >If you run a compressor every day (like a gas station) the oil free >compressors (OFC) will wear out sooner; but, replacing the warn >parts is cheep and eazy. Oiled compressors (OC) stand up to hard use >better; but, are more expensive and dificult to rebuild. Do you have to do anything special to keep oil out of the output, like filtering the air? E.g., are there problems with oil residue building up inside cylinders, or getting squirted at people? - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: oil-free compressors From: "Don Krause" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:04:40 -0800 Just wander over to your local Automotive paint supply store, and purchase the filter. Expect to pay probably $80-$100 bucks for one, but if you want to stop the oil from coming out, that's the best way to go. Of course, if you're running air tools, then you buy the gadget that ADDS oil to the line... . - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: oil-free compressors From: "Edwin Wise" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:16:48 -0600 On 12/15/00, at 12:04 PM, Don Krause wrote: >Just wander over to your local Automotive paint supply store, and = purchase >the filter. > >Expect to pay probably $80-$100 bucks for one, but if you want to stop = the >oil from coming out, that's the best way to go. Hmmm... check out the pneumatics supply stores. I think I paid $20 for mine, and they come cheaper. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: oil-free compressors From: "Edwin Wise" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 16:12:44 -0600 On 12/15/00, at 1:48 PM, Don Krause wrote: >...(ie, you get what you pay for). >Oil in Automotives finishes is a real "Bad Thing". Hm, I can see how they would be a bit more critical of their filters, = yeah. - - - - - Subject: Removing oil from compressed air From: "Malcolm Little" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:03:53 -0500 Filters vary in how much they can trap, and there are more factors than just how fine a filter mesh there is. Airflow is a big factor - if you are using bursts of air, then gravity traps can catch a lot of oil as the particles recombine on the lines while the air is stagnant. If the flow is continuous, then the oil likely never drops out of suspension, and would have to be trapped in a filter/ dessicant/dryer device. The more air that has to be filtered, the more dryer capacity is needed. The less oil is acceptable in the airstream, the finer 'filtering' is needed. If the filter gets full of trapped oil, it will be useless until emptied. So if you are moving a lot of air, and it must have *ZERO* oil in it at it's destination, then you'll spend more money. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: oil-free compressors From: "Don Krause" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:48:31 -0800 It all depends on how much oil you actually want removed... (ie, you get what you pay for). Oil in Automotives finishes is a real "Bad Thing". I myself use a generic $20 filter on my compressor. But then again, I'm = not painting. . - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Pneumatics 101 From: "Zombie Zach" Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:02:42 -0600 Funny, I just added a new pneumatic page to my site! Go check her out at: <http://spookalleyguides.8m.com/pneumatic.html> Have fun~ -Zach <http://www.spookalleyguides.8m.com> - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: 19" Throw Air Cylinders From: "Aaron Abel" Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 18:01:52 -0500 Just do a search for completed items for *cylinder 19*......it'll come up. on 6/19/01 5:26 PM, Sue McDonald at sue at halloweenfear.com wrote: > Jerry..when I put the url in, it comes back as "Input Error" since the > sale is over, did anyone get the email address for the guy? > > Jerry Seiler wrote: >> >> Did anyone get in on this dutch auction for 19" throw air cylinder to = $10 on >> e-bay. >> >> = http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D1605679468&r=3D0&t= =3D0&sh >> owTutorial=3D0&ed=3D992968433&indexURL=3D0&rd=3D1 >> >> The seller was selling 50 and only sold 13... He still might sell to = those >> interested. >> >> $10 for shipping for the 1st, $1 for every one after that. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: 19" Throw Air Cylinders From: "Jerry Seiler" Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:19:14 -0500 Here is some more information. Good luck. Item Title : NEW 19" BIMBA AIR CYLINDER qty 50 (Item# 1605679468) Final Price : $10.00 Auction Ended At : Jun-19-01 09:33:53 PDT Total number of bids : 13 Seller User ID : afs_salvage Seller E-mail : scottram@accu-fab.com Quantity For Sale : 50 - - - - - Subject: Re: 19" Air cylinders From: "Jerry Seiler" Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 05:48:31 -0500 With a 3/4 bore, I would think you could "host" a very large prop. I was thinking of something that would be mounted on the roof of the house. = Maybe a crawler and have it shoot out over the gutter. With a 19" throw, that could probably make the prop look like it jumped its entire body length. Also, with that kind of throw, it might be dangerous to put it somewhere where it could impale someone by accident. This supplier is strange. They use to have pages of stuff for sale, now = they have nothing. I haven't gotten a reply from my e-mail. I've tried going to this web site, but it is down (www.accu-fab.com). Here is a phone number I found in Yahoo. The link was bad, but there was enough of the text to get the following. Try it if you want... no guarantees. I would ask for their salvage department as that what was advertised on the e-bay page. Accu-Fab Systems California Inc. 4763 Bennett Drive Livermore, CA 94550 USA Tel: (925) 606-1302 Fax: (925) 606-1305. North America. ... - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Re: 19" Air cylinders From: "Rus Hardy" Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:35:27 -0500 I've got to jump in here.... Although you have to be careful in your design a 19 inch stroke cylinder = with a 3/4 inch bore is far from weak. A 3/4 inch bore cylinder has a = force factor of .44 . Example if you drive the cylinder at 100 p.s.i. (to = make the math easy) the has the power to lift 44 pounds. That a pretty = heavy prop! I agree that you must be careful with long throw cylinders = not to bend the Piston Rod, but this is very easily overcome. The best thing by far to do with pretty much any air cylinder is to use = levers to increase the throw. Which with a little experimentation is also = very easily achieved. That being said. If you have the cylinder pointing straight up (or down) = and you lifting something relatively light, like a skull or monster head. = You will have no problem. Brent states below that he is using a 2 inch bore cylinder in his coffin. = A two inch bore cylinder has a force factor of 3.1. Meaning that if = operated at 100 p.s.i. (again to make the math easy) this cylinder is = capable of lifting 310 pounds! I'd have to agree with Brent also on being carefully about the = positioning of the prop/cylinder rod. You certainly don't want to impale = anyone....or yourself! The Pneumatics 101 site (currently under construction) will be online very = soon! Happy Haunting!! Rus Brent Ross wrote: > a 19in stroke with a 3/4 in bore is very weak. The rod will be approx a = 1/4in in diameter, so if there is any weight on it it will wobble and = bend. If it bends you might as well throw it away. I wouldnt use it to = lift anything. Maybe push it if its on rollers. I use a 24in stroke = with a 2in bore for my half coffin and when it fully extends it wobbles = just a little. (and the coffin is on rollers) check it out at > www.deviousconcoctions.com/coffins.htm - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Re: 19" Air cylinders From: "Jim Kadel" Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 19:30:40 -0400 Rus, Brent, Jerry, et al, I'd like to "pop up" with an additional thought on air cylinder = applications. With compressed air, we usually want/get rapid acceleration. That's usually the purpose - to get a "startle scare". However, rapid acceleration creates additional force (beyond the prop = weight). Thus, theoretically, if you tried to vertically lift a 44 lb prop at 100 = psi with the 3/4" bore air cylinder, as Rus has calculated, the cylinder would be *at its lift capacity*. There would = be no *extra force* available to accelerate the prop, so it would move upwards rather slowly. Of course, you = could change any of the factors: prop weight, air pressure, or air cylinder (bore) to get required acceleration. The point being that we don't use an air cylinder at, or even near, its = capacity. By adjusting these three factors the haunter usually finds, by = experimentation, a cylinder, pressure and prop weight that works.Ê Jim =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D REF = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D At 04:35 PM 6/20/01 -0500, you wrote: >I've got to jump in here.... > >Although you have to be careful in your design a 19 inch stroke cylinder = with a 3/4 inch bore is far from weak. A 3/4 inch bore cylinder has a = force factor of .44 . Example if you drive the cylinder at 100 p.s.i. (to = make the math easy) the has the power to lift 44 pounds. That a pretty = heavy prop! I agree that you must be careful with long throw cylinders = not to bend the Piston Rod, but this is very easily overcome. >The best thing by far to do with pretty much any air cylinder is to use = levers to increase the throw. Which with a little experimentation is also = very easily achieved. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Re: 19" Air cylinders From: "Rus Hardy" Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:53:17 -0500 Jim, I agree with you wholeheartedly! The force factor remains a constant regardless of air pressure, and the = numbers I stated were it's capacity at 100 p.s.i. That being said, I don't believe I have ever needed to run a cylinder at = it's capacity. I pretty much design the prop then calculate the necessary = cylinder to do what I need. I generally like to multiply the weight of = the prop by at least two, three if cost allows and size the cylinder as = required. However, most home prop builders do this the other way = around...get a cylinder and see what they can do with it. Also I very rarely find the need for "long throw" cylinders, most of the = time using lever action to amplify the throw of the cylinder. For the = cylinder referenced in these posts, I would most likely use the cylinder = as a linear actuator with no levers. Attach it to a head, hand, or = something else. It would take one hell of a head to weigh in at the 44 = pound capacity I stated in my example earlier. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: need advise air compressors-recharging/usage. From: "D.Derek Verner" Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 5:5:34 -0400 To be more precise,the following factors determine how often your air compressor will cycle on: ! Volume of tank. 2. Volume of cylinder(s) in air compressor pump. 3. Speed at which pump is driven. 4, Length and diameter (ie. volume)of lines leading to animatronic. 5. Amount of leakage in system. 6. Volume of pneumatic cylinder. 7. Whether cylinder is single or double acting. 9. Altitude above sea level. 10. Temperature of the air. 11. How often the animatronic is actuated. Since it is difficult to factor in all of these parameters, the way to proceed is to build the haunt and try it. If you have problems: increase or decrease the appropriate (and or) cheapest parameter. - - - - - Subject: Re: air compressor From: "patty a nuth" Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 18:59:58 -0400 I forgot that I have an old nebulizer[for asthma]. Anyone use these in their displays to operate a display?.It doesn't say what the psi is.I also see some fairly cheap air compressor, airbrushes on ebay right now $69.00.I THINK THEY WERE 60 PSI ??????? Would these work? THANKS - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Re: air compressor From: "Rob Withoff" Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:43:58 -0500 +--------------------------------------------------------- | Rob Withoff http://www.magic-marmot.com | Big Kahuna | Magic Marmot Studios Sound, Vision, and Digitalia +--------------------------------------------------------- > I forgot that I have an old nebulizer[for asthma]. Anyone use these in > their displays to operate a display?. Nope. They are way too weak to be of any use to power an animatronic. They work well for big bubblers, or a really big aquarium pump. I seem to remember that these also have the capability for some good suction as = well. I use mine for my airbrush. > It doesn't say what the psi is. I think it's around 40 max. And you can't really use it with an air tank either, because the motor will burn out if it has to press against any pressure for an extended period. They are designed for constant flow and very little back pressure, but they can take airbrush kind of cycles. Now that's not to say that you couldn't use it to puff blasts of air in a haunt, or use it for a cracked-oil hazer/fogger, or use it in conjunction with an old airbrush and a big supply of water to make a mister. Make sure the compressor stays cool-- if it's running continually, it may overheat. > I also see some fairly cheap air compressor, airbrushes on ebay right = now > $69.00.I THINK THEY WERE 60 PSI ??????? Would these work? THANKS They'd work for an airbrush. Not to power a pneumatic prop. BTW, check the thrift shops and surplus stores. I've seen 'em for $19.00, in pretty good shape. To be sure, I'd rather have a *real* air compressor, designed for = continuous heavy-duty work. One of those big-ass upright tank permanent 230V units, = or at least a construction-duty unit capable of 100 PSI minimum. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Re: air compressor From: "Pirates of Emerson" Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:22:01 -0700 Rob, How did you hear about my newest acquisition so soon? Karl -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Rob Withoff Subject: RE: Hall: Re: air compressor To be sure, I'd rather have a *real* air compressor, designed for = continuous heavy-duty work. One of those big-ass upright tank permanent 230V units, = or at least a construction-duty unit capable of 100 PSI minimum. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Re: air compressor From: "Pirates of Emerson" Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:55:14 -0700 Gee Paul, all it says is A.F.B. on the side. :) Seriously, it's a 100 gallon, 5hp, 14.8 amp, 3 phase, two stage Quincy. = scfm is unknown, but it did work great when we removed it from an unnamed = themed restaurant. The box on the side is an air conditioner - go figure! Guess = it has something to do with cooling the compressed air draws liquids like = water out..... but that's just a SWAG. Karl -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Graveyard Productions Subject: RE: Hall: Re: air compressor Karl: What are the specs on your new toy? - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Re: air compressor From: "M. Little" Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 18:04:41 -0400 Yep, they call them 'aftercoolers'. Compressing air heats it up, cooling it again reduces the dew point to where it does almost 'rain'. The after- cooler reduces the humidity of the air to reduce condensation downstream where it could cause rust and scale. -Malcolm > ... The box on the side is an air conditioner - go > figure! Guess it > has something to do with cooling the compressed air draws > liquids like water > out..... but that's just a SWAG. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Re: air compressor From: "Thanatoz" Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Actually the air conditioner acts like a dryer...ever notice your house air conditioner will dry the air out? Same idea. BTW, nice unit...very sweet. Thanatoz --- Pirates of Emerson wrote: > Gee Paul, all it says is A.F.B. on the side. :) > > Seriously, it's a 100 gallon, 5hp, 14.8 amp, 3 > phase, two stage Quincy. scfm > is unknown, but it did work great when we removed it > from an unnamed themed > restaurant. The box on the side is an air > conditioner - go figure! Guess it > has something to do with cooling the compressed air > draws liquids like water > out..... but that's just a SWAG. - - - - - Subject: Re: Re: air compressor From: "james maguire" Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 12:11:42 -0400 I'd have to say that I don't think this will work... My son has a nebulizer - it is nothing more than an aquarium bubbler with a medical sounding name. It won't support any pressure. Phobos http://www.phobos-deimos.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "patty a nuth" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 6:59 PM Subject: Hall: Re: air compressor > I forgot that I have an old nebulizer[for asthma]. Anyone use these in > their displays to operate a display?.It doesn't say what the psi is.I > also see some fairly cheap air compressor, airbrushes on ebay right now > $69.00.I THINK THEY WERE 60 PSI ??????? Would these work? THANKS - - - - - Subject: Re: Terror Syndicate storm door cylindar question From: "james maguire" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 19:14:56 -0400 1/16? as in aquarium tubing? at 190 psi? Now THAT'S scary. I think the general use amongst haunters is 3/8" at 40 psi Phobos http://www.phobos-deimos.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "WebMistress" To: "Halloween-L" Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 6:38 PM Subject: Hall: Terror Syndicate storm door cylindar question > How many folks have tried T.S.'s heavy duty storm door cylindar in = props? > > I bought the cylindar, drilled and tapped it for a 1/16 fitting ... but = it doesn't have enough air volume to move the piston. :( My compressor is 190psi, but I put a restrictor on it and tried several different settings. No go. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Terror Syndicate storm door cylindar question From: "Brent Ross" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Personally i dont think that those door cylinders should be tampered with. = A real pneumatic cylinder is built for air pressure and the door = cylinders are meant to close doors. To pervent rish to yourself and = others I recommend purchasing the true pneumatic cylinders. Alot can be = found at the same price as the door cylinders, but they are a hell of alot = safer and more reliable. Search for a local machine shop that sells used = parts or check out www.candhsales.com. Remember that you dont need to have a 36in cylinder to make something = travel 36in. With a little bit of work you can make a lifter, extender, = or erector, to suit any needs. I'll try and get my pneumatics page up = tonight to show you what I mean. Well I hope this helps Brent www.deviousconcoctions.com Pneumatics page is www.deviousconcoctions.com/pneumatics.htm - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Terror Syndicate storm door cylindar question From: "WebMistress" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Thanks for the advice Brent. I DO NOT want to start this debate again abou= t pneumatic safety .... BUT ... I want to try this out. I've had our comp= any fabrication person check out the stability of the door cylinder. The o= ne I bought is made out of steel, not aluminum. The welds are quality that = will withstand the pressure. Now, myself, I don't know anything about pneumatics!!! I don't think I'll = ever advise anyone of anything. But Jessie has been dealing with it for 50= years on an industrial level. So I trust his opinion. He think that the = cylinder that I bought is ok ... this is not an endorsement of anything for= anyone else. We read T.S.'s book several times, and do not understand how= exactly he hooked a 2" nipple to the cylinder, when I could only get a 1/1= 6" fitting on the same cylinder. That is why I'm asking people that have S= UCCESSFULLY done this, what did they do. I don't want theory, Jess can giv= e me lots of that ... and trust me ... he loves to do it :) I=92ve actually ordered 15 Bimba cylinders. 10 single rod, single action. = Spring return, rear pivot mounting with a stroke length of 4=94 and 5 doubl= e rod with the same specs. The whole order cost me $325.50. Webby --- Brent Ross > wrote: >Personally i dont think that those door cylinders should be tampered with.= A real pneumatic cylinder is built for air pressure and the door cylinder= s are meant to close doors.=20 - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Re:Door cyl Ques. From: Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:02:06 -0700 >Personally I Think you are wrong, I recomend using door cylinders! They are >cheaper and more Quiet, they also have a spring return! I hope this hel= ps!! I can't argue the "cheap" part. I've never used a storm door closer to kn= ow if in fact it is more quiest than an air cylinder. What's the advantage of a spring return over a double-acting air cylinder? Personally, I rathe= r have control (using an adjustable flow control valve) over the speed at which the prop returns to its resting position as opposed to relying on a spring return or worst yet, a bungee cord. Do you use storm door closer= s in all your props? From your thumbnails, it appears as if your using stai= nless steel air cylinders in most of your props, with the possible exception of= the tombstone pop-up. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Re:Door cyl Ques. From: "WebMistress" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:00:20 -0700 (PDT) I bought a single action cylinder with a spring return ... you can buy = cylinder's and several different configurations .. you can buy s storm = door opener in one. They both have their good point. I'm curious about the operation of the = storm door cylindar, that is why I'm doing this. For my haunt props, I'm = using Bimba cylinders because I think there is less effort in them. Later = on I'm going to try Bimba's Linear Thrusters and their flat cylinders. If = you've ever seen a flat cylinder, it really looks weird! Webby --- wbn at wickedbeernut.com > wrote: >>Personally I Think you are wrong, I recomend using door cylinders! They >are >>cheaper and more Quiet, they also have a spring return! I hope this = helps=3D >!! > >I can't argue the "cheap" part. I've never used a storm door closer to = know >if in fact it is more quiest than an air cylinder. What's the advantage >of a spring return over a double-acting air cylinder? Personally, I = rather >have control (using an adjustable flow control valve) over the speed at >which the prop returns to its resting position as opposed to relying on >a spring return or worst yet, a bungee cord. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Re: Re:Door cyl--picture of snake? From: "WebMistress" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Yes I had the rod out ... I also had my drill and tap covered with wheel = bearing grease so the filings stuck to the bit for easy cleaning. I think the problem I have is not enough volume of air. Steve is helping = me, and I'm still working on it :) I've visited your site before ... that is why I wanted to try pneumatics = ... you have ALL the cool stuff!! Webby >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Carl Chetta" >To: "Halloween List" >Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 3:42 PM >Subject: Hall: Re:Door cyl > > >> Hi, I hope you had the rod pulled out when you drilled the hole in the >back >> of the cyl ., It sounds like you drilled through the seal inside also. = 40 >> psi will be plenty of air to make that thing work fine. I have now sold >over >> 50 props using the door cyl, and never came across that type of = problem. >> check out my tomb stone pop-up on my web page. >> >> Carl Chetta >> www.easternanimatronics.com >> (photos) www.easternanimatronics.com/Carl - - - - - Subject: where did I find the time to write this? (was Door cyl) From: Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 04:14:05 EDT Jerry ^v^ writes: Refabricating devices that were not originally intended for load baring air cylinders comes with risk, but MOSTLY because of the Ungodly pressure that most people use to power them (40 to 70 psi). I have seen Halloween List friends blow apart home made air cylinders. Thank God no one has ever been hurt as far as I know. If you design your jumpers with these "air rams" NOT pointed right at your trick or treaters this could help avoid disaster. We manufacture our own aluminum/plastic cylinders for Spooky F/X, and they are used with about 20 psi. We put a great deal of work and creative engineering into our design strategy to allow this. Personally I prefer using GRAVITY to reset our animations, not springs or even air power return. Gravity will not fail and will not stretch after use like springs. Gravity will not eat up twice as much air and components like air returns systems. But each method has its advantages and disadvantages depend on your application so we use all three methods. BACK TO WORK, we got lost of orders to fill and so little time...who needs sleep right? Jerry ^v^ www.SpookyFX.com - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: pop up and bungee cords From: "Sue McDonald" Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 07:01:34 -0700 The bungee has worked for us for the last two years...should work for you. Robert King wrote: > > I am planning on making a tombstone pop up using PVC with a T to make > shoulders. I am wondering if I hook a bungee cord to the T to keep it > from spinning and to make sure it retracts will it be too much force? > If yes any suggestions? - - - - - Subject: Re: SMC Air Valve Help From: "Tim D" Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 21:17:36 -0700 This looks like a 2-position, 5-port valve. "P" is the pressure port. Connect your compressor to there. "A" and "B" connect to a double-acting cylinder. "EA" it exhaust for "A". You could connect an exhaust muffler and/or a needle valve to control the rate of movement when the "A" port is ehxausting. "EB" is simlar to "EA" but for the "B" side. -The Enchanter (There are some who call me ...'Tim'?) Visit www.hauntinggrounds.org "Nostri Spectaculum Fabricatum Stercois" ----- Original Message ----- From: "David E. Basile" To: "Halloween-L" Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 8:45 PM Subject: Hall: SMC Air Valve Help > I stumbled accross an SMC Air Valve PN# NVS4114-0009F or the NV could be = a > HV or HU. Anyway it is listed as 120VAC 60HZ Max pressure is 150PSI. = The > ports are labeled A, B, EB, P and EA. I've got pictures if you need to see > it but I'm trying to figure out how many ports this actually has = assuming 1 > is an input and what the other ports are. Any one familiar with this model? > > Here are the links to the pictures (3 views) > > www.deathappeal.com/stuff/smcvalve1.jpg > www.deathappeal.com/stuff/smcvalve2.jpg > www.deathappeal.com/stuff/smcvalve3.jpg - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Spinning Cylinder From: "Larry Lund" Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:06:16 -0400 My try at an ascii drawing. ram->|-----| <---- on the left is the ram from the cylinder | | Horizontally attached is a rod that slips in and out | | of a stationary tube that is parallel to the cylinder | | | | | ||| | ||| | ||| | ||| Here is the wording used in the Trash Can Trauma explanation to keep the lid from twisting. ---------- snip from TCT ------------- If you have trouble with the lid twisting and not resetting properly, get = 2 pieces of PVC plastic pipe where 1 piece will fit easily into the other. I = recommend 1 inch and 1/2 (1 1/4 and 3/4 work fine too) inch ID. put a cap on the smaller of the 2 pieces and attach the larger piece vertically to the rear of the trash can. (drilling small holes into the rear of the = trash can to accept electricians tie wraps will work.) This will serve as a sleeve for the smaller piece which will go inside of it. Secure the = smaller pipe to the lid of the trash can with a screw through the lid into the cap = of the smaller pipe. This arrangement will enable the lid to return to = it's closed position properly. ---------- end of snip ------------- At 10:33 PM 8/12/2001 -0700, you wrote: >Ok guys and Gals, how do you keep a PVC Cylinder from spinning? In >Steve Hickmans 1st. book he said use a bungee cord, but where do you >hook it. The PVC Cylinder I made was from Larry Lunds site. >http://members.aol.com/llund179/pne_cyl.htm. - - - - -