This file is one of the Wolfstone archives of the Halloween mailing lists. You can find out more, and reach the entire collection here: http://www.pobox.com/~wolfstone/_r/HalloweenArchive.html This particular archive deals with "fog" topics. This includes: o glycol foggers o liquid gas o dry ice o water mist o smoke rings A few postings are missing headers. Sorry about that! - - - - - Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:49:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave Bell Subject: Re: HALL: CO2 solenoids On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Fields, Karl wrote: > Thanks to all about the CO2 question. Located almost everything - except an > electrical solenoid to hook to the CO2 valve. Can't seem to find any that > will support the pressure. Any ideas? Hard to find... Mine was a surplus unit that had a burst rating of something like 1800 psi, if I remember right. But the *operating* pressure was only 250 psi or so. This was a 120 VAC coil, and when I would apply line voltage to it, it would open maybe once in 5 or 10 tries. I figured it was working when I closed the switch about the time (once each half-cycle) when the sine wave line voltage peaked. This peak is up around 160 volts, so I built a little booster by wiring a 45 volt transformer to add to the line voltage. Now, I get about 165 VAC, and the valve opens every time. Since it runs with a very low duty cycle, only on for a second or two, and usually off for at least a minute, it holds up fine. > Doesn't the siphon bottle pull the liquid CO2 instead of the gas? Sure does. > Is the liquid more desirable to create the fog than the gas - and would > this have any effect on the amount of 'squirts' the tank will produce? The liquid is much denser than the gas, so you get more mass of CO2 to the jet in the same time interval. It's the rapid expansion of the gas that creates the cooling effect and cloud of water vapor (from the air) and solid CO2 "snow". Using liquid, you get more expansion, and more gas cloud and cooling. Basically, "liquid is preferable"... > If liquid IS better, why not get liquid C02, or is there such a thing? Well, that's what *is* in the tank! CO2 will liquify at room temp, under sufficient pressure. That pressure is around 530 psi, so what you have is a tall tank, mostly filled with liquid CO2, with the headspace filled with gas at 530 psi. CO2 may also be available as a cryogenic liquid, like liquid Nitrogen is supplied, but the tanks (Dewars) are *much* more expensive to rent. The operating pressure is lower, but you'll have just as hard a time finding a valve rated to work at the temperature of liquid CO2. On the other hand, I'm not so sure CO2 *is* available as a cryogenic liquid: At 1 atmosphere, remember that solid CO2 (dry ice) sublimes *directly* to a gas. This tells me that there is no liquid phase at that pressure! (Look up "triple point" and gas phase diagrams for more info, if so inclined...) - - - - - From: DWMPRODUC at aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:03:15 EST Subject: Re: HALL: Water fog machines (Reply) Scott, MY site is www.fogmachines.com not www.fogmachine.com. When I was researching cheaper alternatives to make fog with high pressure I too thought of using a pressure washer for the pressure. What I found out from the store is that the high pressure washer is only supposed to be run a maximum of 3 hours a week. Even the more expensive ones are not supposed to run over 5 hours per week. I tried taking the cheap route, but I have found out that cheap is not best for this effect. If you did use a pressure washer you would definitely have to have a unloader valve top adjust pressure and to bypass any water in case the system gets clogged, and a pressure gauge. We use a 3 piston pump with brass heads and ceramic plungers to create the fog effect. You need at least 600 to 800 psi to create at a 5 micron mist. The nozzles come in different sizes. The most common one I use is a . 012 nozzle which when it is pressurized at 800 psi, the water is being forced out a hole smaller than one strand of human hair to turn water into fog. With this motor and pump you can run at least 12 hours a day with no problem. So to answer your question it is high pressure plus the tiny hole that it is forced through. I have found out is better to go with a plunger pump than with a cheap pressure washer pump. You will definitely burn it up if you use it constantly. If anyone communicates with Trevor, who was at the gathering, please tell him a have a new product that is 1/2 gallon per minute pump at 800 psi with 15 nozzles. I know he was wanting like 10 nozzles. I don't know what his price range is, but it would be probably around $1000.00 and that is taking some of the price off to help those people out. Any more questions please feel free to e-mail me. Thanks - - - - - Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:45:09 -0800 (PST) From: Dave Bell Subject: Re: HALL: Dragon's/Death's breath On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Jim Kadel wrote: > A number of folks use the CO2 in "siphon tube" cylinders in order to a > sufficient amount. The white cold blast effect, noise, etc is an eye > and ear catcher. > Also.. it's going to have to be a manual operation. I know of only > one person on this list who's got a solenoid valve sufficient to > handle the pressure (Dave are you listening? :>) And his find of this > electric valve was "lucky" I think he'll say. > Jim Unfortunately, "Yes, very lucky!" For cheap, at any rate. If you haunt the surplus stores that stock hydraulic/pneumatic and electromechanical stuff, you can probably find a valve that will do the trick for <$10, but it will take a good deal of searching. I ended up with one that was not really rated to *operate* at the pressure of a CO2 tank (535 to 1800 psi), but was safety rated for burst pressure, at about 2500 psi. It takes a little more "kick" than the rated 120 VAC on the coil to make it open, but it works reliably. Karl located a couple of valves from a company that builds them to spec. I think he got them as samples, but the list price wasn't *too* bad. I don't have the name of specs handy here at work, maybe he's listening, too? - - - - - From: "Fields, Karl" Subject: RE: HALL: Dragon's/Death's breath Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:25:16 -0500 I have found a few new ones from local distributors, but generally in the $125 and up (and WAY UP) range. Ending up getting two samples from a very generous and unnamed company. When they return the valves back to me, (they are inspecting them now) I'll post the company and part number. These are 1/4" NPT, 3/8" orifice, NC, 120VAC, 1200psi. - - - - - Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 12:06:02 -0500 From: Nathaniel Subject: Re: HALL: the smoking kettle Chad croteau wrote: > It's very easy actually... Check in the Edmund Scientific's catalogue, > they have a dry ice maker. It's item #X71-533 for $94.00. You can also > get an extra collection bag for an extra $9.50. > > Those things are neat! I'm not sure if they'd be cost effective in a haunt, though. I've seen one used in my school's laboratory to make dry ice on demand. This one was just a thick cloth bag (and perhaps an attachment) that fit over the output nozzle of a CO2 tank. The dry ice it made seemed a little powdery, and it seemed to waste a lot of the CO2. But if you have a CO2 tank lying around and need some dry ice on the spot, this would be kind of handy. If anyone's interested, I can find out more info on the subject... - - - - - Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 19:46:10 -0500 From: Jim Kadel Subject: Re: HALL: the smoking kettle This method maybe good for demos but not for practical application. It is *very* inefficient, only like 25% . So for 1 lb of dry ice, you'd be using 4 lbs of CO2. - - - - - Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 11:58:33 -0600 From: David Buckert Subject: Re: HALL: the smoking kettle At 08:46 AM 3/5/99 -0800, you wrote: I've had to use Dry Ice to make smoking goblets before, for a witch's brew type effect. In these small quantities the cost of the dry ice isn't too prohibitive, but keeping the smoke coming can be tough. If you use hot water, no matter how hot it is to start with, it very quickly cools and starts freezing. It freezes around the dry ice, encasing it in a layer of ice. That makes it quit smoking. I've had much better luck using alcohol. I use rubbing alcohol because it's cheap, but EverClear might be more fun. The alcohol and dry ice work well together. The dry ice cools the alcohol so it doesn't evaporate as fast, and the alcohol doesn't freeze so the dry ice continues to melt. WARNING! Drinking from this goblet can be dangerous. If the dry ice touches your lip it will stick and damage your lip. If the goblet is metal/pewter (which all the really K00L looking one's are), the bowl of the cup will get so cold that your lips will stick to it too. The result is a great LOOKING effect, but not a very useful drinking goblet. BTW, hold the STEM of the goblet to protect your fingers. As a bonus the outside the goblet's bowl will frost over very nicely, which on most goblets makes a very nice looking effect. - - - - - From: SirMike at aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 15:51:44 EST Subject: Re: HALL: the smoking kettle Another inexpensive, but effective option is to use a warm mist vaporizer. Just put plenty of salt in the water. The more salt, the more steam (fog) you'll have. If the vaporizer is at least 12 inches below the top rim of the kettle, the effect is quite good. - - - - - From: "Robert Benfield" Subject: HALL: Halloween Shopping Trip Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:33:10 -0400 Threw my boys in the car today and went to the Whoopi Bowl (A junkyard/overstock store) I bought a ultrasonic humidifier, which I found out if you put food coloring in the water, the "smoke" turns that color.Ê It's not a deep color, but you can tell it's different than the white.Ê Anybody ever hear of any health problems inhaling food coloring? Got a rotisserie motor for the FCG I'm gonna build.Ê It does a whopping 4 3/4 rpm's.Ê Should be just fine. And I bought a fan in a box with a 2" plastic duct output. Rated at 50CFM. Maybe I'll try building a fogger.Ê Maybe I should go back there and see if they have a fogger.Ê It's one of those places that crap is just thrown everywhere, and you need to go down each aisle about a hundred times before you actually see everything. Total cost of everything was ten bucks. My kids are so excited we're going to build a ghost. - - - - - From: "Ron Tye" Subject: HALL: Fog machines Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:57:47 PDT Hi Linda, Your right, most every one on the list seems to have diaper rash this week. I got my first fogger last year, an ADJ Shadow about the same size and price as the fog hog (about $100). I do a home haunt so I only got heavily used for one night; but, it worked great. I got it from http://www.coolstuffcheap.com/ . They have some cool stuff on there web pages. Less expensive foggers (less than about $500) have about a 50% duty cycle. You can only get about 30 sec of fog before it shuts down and reheat for about 30 sec. It's a little annoying; but, nothing you can't work around. It's amazing how much fog my little shadow puts out in 30 sec. Used machines are hard to find and expensive to repair unless you're a tech type. I wouldn't bother with one. Any of the machines can make low lying fog. It's all a matter of cooling the fog after the machine has produced it. I've had excellent luck using ice. I have a humble web page with some pictures and instructions about how I built my first chiller. http://home.earthlink.net/~rmtye/fog.htm. Interesting thing about bronchitis, other such nasties and foggers. The fog they make is synthetic, not actuarial water vapor. The fog is also hydroscopic (it pulls water from what ever it touches). It's this drying quality that irritates the lungs. If you force the fog through a bunch of ice, not only does it get cold, it gets wet - saturated with water and doesn't irritate your lungs (ok, I've never actually used your lungs; but, the wet fog doesn't bother my lungs). I don't have much preference between brands; but, others on the list have some strong opinions. If you really want a fogger for cheep there are plans for building your own from common stuff around the house (and home depot). - - - - - Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:08:59 -0400 From: Zale Subject: Re: HALL: Fog machines >I've always wanted one but, ironically, they make me prone to catching >bronchitis and other such nasties.Ê But, I'll suffer just about anything for >my craft.Ê Besides, I've checked out the prices on the water foggers and I >don't even have a house of my own to mortgage. Linda, you might want to find out if you are allergic to propylene glycol or any of the other glycols.Ê I am quite sensitive to these and too much exposure to fog can really play havoc with my respiratory system.Ê Low lying, chilled, fog is less of a problem for me because you don'tÊ breathe in as much (unless you're sitting on the floor). - - - - - From: "Fields, Karl" Subject: RE: HALL: Fog machines - Residue? Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:39:12 -0400 One thing that DOES create residue is not allowing enough of an air gap between the nozzle of the fogger and whatever you are pumping it into. If there is not enough air getting to the actual nozzel, the fluid will not turn completely to gas (or whatever it is!). Karl > -----Original Message----- > From: Linda M Lestha [SMTP:URIELDEWOLF at prodigy.net] > From: Butler, Mark R. (MBUT) > >Does the glycol stuff leave a residue? I mean if I used it in the house > for > >Ê The only problem I noticed with fog machinesÊ was in the actual area > where the fog was released from the machines.Ê Of course, the machine was > on the floor and extra duct was used to get the fogÊ to where it was > needed so we had a problem with some puddling (very slippery > stuff).Ê - - - - - Subject: Fog Cooling From: Chuck Rice Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:14:33 -0700 Speaking for fog coolers, I just got a new Surplus Center catalog. Surplus Center Catalog 272 1999 Edition 1-800-488-3407 In that catalog, on page 150, they have a Mini Refrigeration Unit that was used to cool desktop soda fountains. It is about the size of a box of copier paper. 115 VAC at 3.2 Amps. It says that the "Wrap around flexible cooling jacket" is 33" x 8.5" They are 47.50, but shipping for the 44 pound weight is $20. Thought that I would try one anyway. It would be nice to have a "No Ice" cooler. - - - - - From: DocFright at aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:44:04 EDT Subject: Re: HALL: Re:Fogger in the car I have done this to my Hearse. It was very expensive and I have to take it apart every year to get the car to pass inspection. If I remember right it cost me around $1100 with me doing all the work and getting the fogger at cost. I think it was worth it. It really looks good. We used to have a parade going into a haunt with three hearses. Mine was the first one and I could put out enough fog to cover all three. I also set the fogger on timer and leave it sitting in the partking lot to draw attention. - - - - - From: DocFright at aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:00:44 EDT Subject: Re: HALL: Re:Fogger in the car In a message dated 99-07-15 13:06:34 EDT, you write: << Other than being a little pricey, that's *EXACTLY* what I want. SO, how did you do it. Is it a regular fogger running off of an inverter? Did you try to utilize any of the numerous "heating elements' that are naturally on the car? Have any of the local cops slapped you in irons? >> It is a fog machine/inverter combo and I have a PVC network running under the car to pipe the fog thru. The cops have not "slapped the irons" on yet but I have been pulled over a few times. I use the fog mostly on private property and they can't say much. However the PVC under the car I have to take off every year so the car will pass inspection. - - - - - From: Yensid579 at aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:02:09 EDT Subject: Re: HALL: Re:Fogger in the car In a message dated 7/15/99 9:19:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DocFright at aol.com writes: > I have done this to my Hearse. It was very expensive and I have to take it > apart every year to get the car to pass inspection. If I remember right it > cost me around $1100 with me doing all the work and getting the fogger at > cost. I think it was worth it. It really looks good. We used to have a > parade > going into a haunt with three hearses. Mine was the first one and I could > put > out enough fog to cover all three. I also set the fogger on timer and leave > it sitting in the partking lot to draw attention. > > Tony Hay have you ever thought of putting those neon lights underneath your hearse? The green neon lights would look wicked under all that fog!! - - - - - From: "DWM Productions" Subject: Re: HALL: fog machines Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:37:54 -0700 i use our 15 nozzle water fog sytem for our outside graveyard scenes.Ê I can roll out 15 nozzles spaced about 2 feet apart to give me 30 feet of continous water fog.Ê Or or 25 nozzle it which can cover 50 feet of space. It is an investment at $1100.00 but it sure puts out the fog, and low lying fog as well, and it runs on regular tap water.Ê I can fog for about 8 hours for about $3.00.Ê It is very cost efficient.Ê This is just what I have found to give me that real fog effect that creeps across the yard. - - - - - From: "Malcolm Little" Subject: RE: HALL: fog machines Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:46:03 -0400 Oh, yeah... compete. That's me. But seriously, folks... I had an idea once... (month or two ago... coupla weeks...) I'd considered coupling a pneumatic cylinder (large bore) with a hydraulic cylinder (small bore) shaft-to-shaft, tossing in a pair of check valves and either a couple of limit switches or limit valves, and piloting a control valve to create a pneumatic pump. (Want the mechanicals? 2/3 of a cylinder -gives a cutout to manage all of the 'workings' - flange on each end (top/bottom) for cyl. mounting... the equiv. of a large nut to connect both of the cyl. rods together... the nut actuates the limit sensors... end of the stroke, reverse and re-stroke) In [-------------------] out ------------------+ [ ] +-------------- +------------------xxx-------------------+ ------------------+ [ ] +-------------- [-------------------] I figured that with a 4 or 5:1 piston dia. ratio, I could pump out some serious hobby pressure using compressed air and city water (which is the nominal 50psi here). A pneumatic regulator would actually set the output pressure. (in a dead-headed system, all would equalize at line pressure - all would stop. Open the system, the pistons stroke...) It was one of those home ideas, and I don't have a clue as to how to size atomization nozzles to avoid drenching the front lawn.... I do know how to make a pressure amplifier though.. we used them to get some **SERIOUS** spraying pressure for a volatle, viscious fluid when I worked for 'a large, multinatinal tire manufacturer, headquartered in the southeast....' -Malcolm > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-halloween-l at majordomo.netcom.com > [mailto:owner-halloween-l at majordomo.netcom.com]On Behalf Of D.W Merchant > Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 1:50 AM > > Are you wanting to compete? LOL The concept of fog with water is to > pressurize the water between 600 to 800 psi and then force it out > nozzles that are around .012 of an inch. That is a 12thousandths of an > inch hole or you can run it through a .008 or a .006 nozzle to generate > the fog. My quicktime vide shows all that on my website. It shows the > pump and working and the fog coming out of the nozzles. It also shows > the tubing and nozzles used. You can see it by going to > http://www.fogmachines.com and then clicking on the high pressure > quicktime movie if you want to learn more about how these systems work. > Thanks. > DWM - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Fun with fog From: Gern Blanston Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:01:40 -0700 (PDT) you mean your science teacher didn't teach you how to make these back in high school? ;-) Mine did. He took a cardboard box and cut a 1'ish size hole on one side, then on the opposite side he cut the whole side off and replaced it with a diaphram. He could then aim the box at someone 20 feet away, pull back and release the diaphram, and a few seconds later the target person would feel a rush of air on their face. He would then do it again with smoke in the box and you would see a huge fast moving smoke ring shoot across the room. I made mine out of a 5 gallon bucket. I just snapped some pics for you (digital camera) and put them on a web page: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~seand/hall.html I couldn't find any rubber sheets to make a large diaphram out of rubber.(a web search for "latex sheets" returned some weird results) So I made a sort of plunger with a piece of plexiglass and large rubber bands. A blue styrofoam hammer would then strike the center(doesn't strike center in picture, should, but doesn't) of the plunger forcing a smoke ring out of the front. The hammer was operated by a "cam" spining on a rotissire motor. Fog was supplied by a hose that would connect to the side of the bucket. (not pictured, but you can see the hole it connects too) I'm not suggesting you follow my design, I'm just showing you what I made. Feel free to ask questions. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Fun with fog From: Jim Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 17:22:45 -0400 Thanks Sean, The hole for the smoke (from a fog machine?), doesn't look that large.. what diam. pipe/hose did you use here? I like your "piston design" better than a diaphragm, because you get more efficient motion for the purpose. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Fog Coolers From: Chuck Rice Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:19:43 -0700 At 09:18 AM -0700 1999/09/27, Sandro-Yepes, Pol wrote: >After being on the list for a few weeks and enjoying the plethora of >information... I now have a question. > >I have four fog machines they are all DJ F-900s - I decided to cool the = fog >this year, I liked the design of the cooler made with the copper tubing = - >sorry I can't remember what site I pulled it from. Unfortunately, it = didn't >work. It seems the fog shot out of the Tubing so quickly that it didn't >cool the fog down. > >Any suggestions on slowing the fog down... It works if I quickly depress >and release the fog button so a very minimal amount of fog is = released.... >but I don't want to be tied to the fog machines all night. > >Any help would be appreciated. Fro high volume fog machines, you will need two or more sections of the = fog cooler, also, be sure to place the fog machine about 6 to 8 inches (or as far back as you can from the first section of the cooler). This gives the hot fog more time to mix with room temperature air before entering the cooler. It makes a big difference. The same goes for any of the fog cooler designs. The Fog temperature is 190 degrees or more when it leaves the nozzle. Mixing that with 70 degree air initially drops the temperature in half. The cooler can then drop it another 20 degrees making it colder than the room air. As long as it is cooler than the room air, it will sink to the floor. Remember that with ice water, the coldest the coils can get is about 35 degrees, so if you want them cooler, you will need to add salt to the water, or dry ice and alcohol (I have not tried these). -Chuck- - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Fog Coolers From: Jim Kadel Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:22:13 -0400 I would suggest moving the nozzle of the fog machine about 12 to 15 inches back from the entrance to the cooler or hose to cooler. This so that the fog is cooled first by mixing with some air before it goes directly into the chiller. It may pre-cool the vapors to the point where the chiller can lower the temperature below ambient (which is what's needed :>) - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: CO2 valve From: "Fields, Karl" Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:51:17 -0500 What a memory you've got Dave! I actually got them for the '98 season. I got them from the JD Gould Company (800)634-6853 in Indianapolis, IN. Can't seem to find a web site. Specs are AHP, 1/4" fmpt, bronze, NC, 100-1000 psi, teflon seats, 120VAC, 3/8" orifice. I used them for short bursts, maybe a second or two long every 5 seconds = or so. While playing with, i mean tuning them, they were sustaining 10 = seconds blast and the only ill effects (other than the mile high gargoyles - but that's another story) was a frost covering over the valve. Didn't seem to effect them at all. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: MSDS Gylcerine From: "Charles Cooley" Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:55:41 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Malcolm Little" > > Conditions to Avoid: > > Incompatible materials, ignition sources, excess heat. > > I think that 'excess heat' thing is what makes the difference. > > Still, I have a tough time envisioning someone dying from it. > > From an asphyxiation standpoint, you gotta have a lot of fog > in a really tight area for quite a while... an allergic > reaction could do it, but that's no more likely with Glycerine/ > water mix than with commercial mixtures. > > Perhaps our alleged home fog mixer put in something they shouldn't? > > -Malcolm Every type of propylene glycol-based fog fluid has a specific temperature range to safely vaporize. Also, if the fluid is exposed to air, is begins to go through an oxidation process. If these oxidized fluids are over heated (i.e. in home-made foggers) the fog has been found to be carcinogenic. And certain people are simply allergic to water based fog fluids. The addition of distilled water will cause no ill harm to the machine or the people breathing the fog, but it will have the effect of thinning the fog out and making it dissipate more quickly (like haze). To make propylene-glycol fluids hang longer outside like oil-based, some companies add some triethylene-glycol to the mix. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: MSDS Gylcerine From: "Rob Withoff" Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 23:05:01 -0600 > Every type of propylene glycol-based fog fluid has a specific = temperature > range to safely vaporize. Also, if the fluid is exposed to air, is = begins > to go through an oxidation process. If these oxidized fluids are over > heated (i.e. in home-made foggers) the fog has been found to be > carcinogenic. And certain people are simply allergic to water based fog > fluids. The addition of distilled water will cause no ill harm to the > machine or the people breathing the fog, but it will have the effect of > thinning the fog out and making it dissipate more quickly (like haze). = To > make propylene-glycol fluids hang longer outside like oil-based, some > companies add some triethylene-glycol to the mix. -------------------- The addition of the distilled water will also lower the temperature at = which the fog vaporizes. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: MSDS Gylcerine From: "al james" Date: 3 Mar 00 10:35:48 EST Charles, Hmm... Sounds like you sell commercial foggers. I might agree with you that you that it is possible to overheat fog fluid= if you use some kind of heat exchanger that is not temperature regulated. M= ost home built foggers use a heated surface (clothes iron) to boil the fog fl= uid, these units are at atmospheric pressure which would boil the fluid at the= low end (212F) of the listed boiling point range 212 - 470 Deg F. If you presurized the fluid enough to exceed the high end of the boiling point (= 470 deg F) you may create dangerous gasses. This is not possible at atmosphe= ric pressures. Adding water to any of the fluids discussed like used in commercial fog fluid lowers the boiling point of the liquid to 212 deg F = at atmospheric. By the way, propylene glycol is now at $9.72 a gallon it went up a buck t= his year -- still much cheaper than commercial fluids. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: MSDS Gylcerine From: "al james" Date: 3 Mar 00 13:03:17 EST Jim, Yes I know this is true that the boiling point will increase due to a cha= nge in the molecular weight. But my point that I was trying to make that may= have been unclear is that with the water mixed at 15% - 30% the boiling point = is well below the hazardous level of the pure fluids at atmospheric pressure= =2E = What we are dealing with here is safety, I don't wish to teach chemistry.= Also here are some additional current prices for those wishing to mix the= ir own fluids. Glycerine =3D $14.77 Gallon Triethylene Glycol =3D $8.72 Gallon Al Jim Kadel wrote: Al, Isn't it true that only pure water boils at 212 F (atmospheric pressure)?= In theory, at least, whenever anything is dissolved in water, the = resulting solution will vaporize (boil) above 212 F... no? - - - - - Subject: Fogger's and vinegar From: Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:35:14 EDT Update on the broken Radio Shack fogger: I opened up the fogger and disconnected the pump from the heating coil. = The pump should have worked if only the coil was plugged up. However the pump = is not pumping. It only buzzes. So, either the pump is clogged, or the pump = is toast. I can't disassemble the pump, it's not built that way. I've heard others = on the list say that vinegar causes havoc with the pump's rubber diaphragm. = Is that true? If so, why does the manufacturer's instructions say to flush = it out with a 20/80% mix of vinegar/water? It looks like I'm taking it in for service this week! Unless anyone else = has some ideas? - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Fogger's and vinegar From: "Mat Goebel" Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:03:31 -0700 VINEGAR IS EEEEEEVVVVVIIIIILLLLLL. USE ONLY DISTILLED WATER - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Plain(Ultrasonic) Water Fogger:BETTER PRICE $27.95 From: "kikz" Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:11:52 -0500 HERE IS ANOTHER LINK....... $27.95 SALE PRICE.... http://www.artisticdelights.com/ulfog.html When I ordered mine awhile back, there was a 3 day turnover w/online ordering, I was pleasantly surprised:) I ordered 3 units, hoping 2 will accomodate my cauldron, and will use the other elsewhere.. small note: do not use in plastic containers, as the ultrasonic fogger elements will render the inside of the container pitted.......... - - - - - From: To: Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 5:27 AM Subject: Hall: Blow-By Fog Chiller A thought on fog chillers. Wandering alone in the wilderness as I was until I discovered you all, when I built my fog chiller to keep the fog on the ground, I seem to have done it all "wrong". I never chill the oily fog, just the clean air, so I never get a residue to clean up or drip back out, which I would expect the chillers I've seen = on this board to do. Sitting just behind my fog machines sit blowers like you find on the top of force-ventilated furnaces or hot water tanks: Squirrel cage blowers with 2"-3" output designed to push fumes through PVC to outside your house. = My PVC pipe runs up to a "Y" at the output jet of the fogger, where it picks up the smoke and mixes it with the blower air. I put my fog through flex = tubing, like a shop vac uses, for several yards, then blow it out of various = spots in the yard. The point is, to keep the hot fog on the ground, I chill the air going into the blower. I had cleanup and reliability problems several years ago = when I used to put the fog through blowers, as they gummed up. This solved my problems. You still cool the air in the ways your have all been discussing, but not following the fogger output, but before it instead. - - - - - Subject: Re: Re: Blow-By Fog Chiller From: "Todd Snyder" Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:40:31 -0500 If you cool the air before adding fog so the air starts out cooler before its heated the end result would be cooler fog than if you did nothing at = all but I think cooling the fog after heating would give better results. This is because the rate heat is removed from one entity to another is directly proportional to the difference in temperature between the two, so = I would say Webgoblin has a point. The same "fog cooler" would remove more heat from the fog/air after it was heated up as compared to just cooling = the room air prior to it being heated up. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Webgoblin of Goblinville" To: "Halloween List" Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 12:43 PM Subject: Hall: Re: Blow-By Fog Chiller > That's a waste of time if you're using a standard fogger - if you're = using > the one with the air blowing through mineral oil, it would probably = work. > But with a standard fogger, the fog is created by running the fog fluid > across a hot plate which heats up the air - when it leaves the fogger, = the > air's been heated so has to go through the fogger. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Re: Re: Blow-By Fog Chiller From: Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:11:47 EDT In a message dated 10/3/2000 3:10:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kb9nvh@bluemarble.net writes: << If you cool the air before adding fog so the air starts out cooler = before its heated the end result would be cooler fog than if you did nothing at = all but I think cooling the fog after heating would give better results. This is because the rate heat is removed from one entity to another is directly proportional to the difference in temperature between the two, = so I would say Webgoblin has a point. The same "fog cooler" would remove = more heat from the fog/air after it was heated up as compared to just cooling = the room air prior to it being heated up. >> You are, of course, right. Aftercooliing will cool the air more. But is it = important? I run 3 foggers, one 5000 cubic ft/min and two 2500 cubic = ft/min units. I cool the two small units with the blow by coolers, and on hot dry = nights (the worst test situation. Cold damp nights even hot fog stays low) = the fog stays within 4 feet of the ground. If it were 5 degrees colder, = would it change that? Inn return for the pre-cooling, I can put away my foggers = and blowers 10 minutes after takedown. Aftercoolers should be full of = condensed oil, and the fan blades will pick up dust, load up, slow down, etc., and = need cleaning. Or, so I theorized, when I decided to pre-cool. The one benefit I see to my setup is the blower also captures the little = bit of smoke that surrounds the fogger when it's pump shuts down and the fog stream ends. It sucks it up and forces it out the flexpipe, as it is swallowing lots of outside air and is proximal to the fogger. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Re: Re: Blow-By Fog Chiller From: "Todd Snyder" Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 07:57:42 -0500 I see what your are doing now....I thought (as webgoblin did) that you = were feeding cool air into the fogger prior to fogging/heating. What I think = you said you were doing in your last message was adding the heated fog to a = cool airstream and that sounds like a great idea!! Does that method "thin" = the fog to much would be my only concern but you said it works great. Would like to see a diagram of your setup. Sounds like the way to go (unless = the freefog technique is a better method all together, have you experimented with this?) In your last message did you say cold damp nights made even hot fog stay close to the ground and hot dry nights were the worst situation for fog staying close to the ground? That would be the opposite of what I would expect. Now I'm really confused. - - - - - > Todd, > In a way you kinda answered your own question. The oil-cracking process > technically produces a mist. My company produced a respiratory > protection training program. Our definition of "Mists" and "Fogs" are > as follows: > > MISTS are droplets of liquid suspended in air. They are spherical in > shape with a size ranging from a few micrometers to over one hundred > micrometers in size. Mists are generated by the splashing, bubbling, or > spraying of liquids. The fine droplets comprising the mist remain the > same as the original liquid from which they were generated. So a toxic, > irritating, or infectious liquid will produce a mist with similar > characteristics when it is aerosolized. > > FOGS are similar to mists. They differ in the way they are formed. > Mists are formed when some type of vigorous actions cause droplets of > liquid to be suspended in the air. Fog is formed when vapors of a solid > or liquid condense in the air to form suspended droplets. The droplets > in fog are usually one to ten micrometers in diameter, which is slightly > smaller than the average mist droplet. > > So basically the tiny high pressure bubbling just sends the mineral oil > into the air. There's no magic and/or chemical change taking place. It > just puts the oil in the air so we can all grease our lungs down. ;0) - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Fog machine From: Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:47:24 -0400 The directions for cleaning my (Spencers) fog machine are; After every 40 hours of continuous operation, it is recommended to run a cleaning solution composed of 80% distilled water / 20% white vinegar = through the system to prevent the accumulation of particulate matter in the = heating element. the recommended cleaning regimen is as follows: 1. While unit is unplugged and cool, unscrew nozzle at very front of = unit and clean out debris with vinegar and pipe cleaner, making sure that the hole= is free of clogs. 2. Empty all fog fluid from machine. Add cleaning solution to tank. Plug = unit in and begin warm up. 3. Run unit in a well-ventilated area until tank is empty. 4. replace nozzle. 5. Cleaning is now complete. Refill with fog fluid. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Re: Fog Machine Storage? was "Coupla storage questions... From: "Webgoblin of Goblinville" Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:55:07 -0800 Do what the instructions that came with it tell you to do.Ê If you don't have them, call the manufacturer and/or check their website.Ê Most manufacturers have different instructions - some say run distilled water through it then store it dry, others say run vinegar & water through it = and store it dry, others say run one or the other solution through it and then fill the tank with fog fluid.Ê Fogmaster may say one thing, Antari = another, VHI something else, so you have to go with what the manufacturer of your fogger says. TO PRESERVE THE WARRANTY - - - - - Subject: Cleaning fog machines From: Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 12:59:51 -0500 Hey ghoulies, There are many different opinions on whether how to, when, with what, and = if even at all when it comes to cleaning fog machines.Ê One thing that I = have learned from the past two years on the list at the expense of others = is.....DO NOT CLEAN YOUR FOGGER WITH VINGEGAR !!!! It seems that the vinegar/water solution can ruin the pump and seals of = your fogger.Ê Why they tell you to do this in the cleaning = instructions....I don't know.Ê Maybe it's a conspiracy to get us to buy = more foggers.......Ê All I know is many a list member has done this = only to find that their fogger doesn't work the next year.Ê If you choose = to clean it, use DISTILLED WATER only.Ê Regular water can leave harmful = deposits.Ê Not bottled drinking water, not tap water....distilled water. Some people prefer not to clean their foggers at all, leaving the fog = juice in their foggers all year.Ê This is controversial....some claim that = it keeps the seals & o-rings lubricated preventing them from cracking or = drying out.Ê This also keeps the pump primed with fog juice; therefore, = your pump doesn't have to work as hard the next year to start producing = fog.Ê I haven't heard any bad things happening as of yet to anyone who has = done this.Ê Just make sure you leave the cap on the fog juice reservior so = that debris does not collect in it or spill throughout the year.Ê I = aquired a very large fog machine this past year that was given to me by a = friend.Ê This machine had fog fluid in it and according to her had been in = there for years.Ê When we got the thing working, it worked like a = charm.....almost too good, you couldn't see our house this year!!! Last year I cleaned my foggers with distilled water and they both worked = fine this year.Ê One thing I did notice is that the pumps had to work a = few minutes straight to start syphoning/priming fluid before fog came out. = ÊI will probably clean them again this year, but a part of me thinks I = should just leave the fluid in them. Hope this helps.... - - - - - Subject: Re: Halloween-L Digest #998 - 00/11/09 From: "Leanne Shamp" Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 16:15:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Hall: Re: Fog Machine Storage? was "Coupla storage questions..= .. I bought my fog machine from a theatrical company.Ê They told me to drain = the fog juice, fill it with distilled water and run it till it runs clear = (no fog coming out of the nozzle).Ê You then leave the distilled water in = it to store it.Ê If you leave fog fluid in the machine it eventually will = cause a buildup and clog up the machine.Ê Hope this helps. - - - - - Subject: Re: [Hall: Foggers] From: "Dox" Date:Ê 9 Nov 00 21:33:51 EST The Antari Z-1500 "Pro Fog Generator" has an output of 25,000 CFPM (aweso= me) and will run continuously at a volume a little less than that (it's a hec= k of a lot of fog!!!).Ê Don't know what your def. of "large price tag" is, but= Êthe Z-1500 sells for around $650 or so.Ê Also has DMX512 control on-board! :-= - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: foggers From: Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 02:34:01 EST In a message dated 11/9/00 11:06:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, webgoblin at goblinville.com writes: << Ellen - Ê ÊThey're not "toxic" - if they were, you couldn't buy them.Ê Because they Êcause problems for those with respiratory problems doesn't make them = toxic. Ê >> To be clear, what they technically are is irritating.Ê It's just like a = cloud of dust isn't going to poison you, but you sure don't want to breathe it extendedly.Ê Some people are more sensitive to it, but generally the worst = that typical haunt-working exposure will cause in a typical person is the loss of one's voice.Ê The ol' Fog Frog Voice, I know it well. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: foggers From: Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 03:37:54 EST Mine says "indoor use only" and it sounds like the hall she rented would = be plenty large enough to qualify as "adequate ventilation". THEY ASRE THINKING ABOUT THE ELECTRIC SYSTEM; DON'T LEAVE IT IN THE RAIN - electrocution Cheryl In a message dated 11/9/00 11:05:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, webgoblin at goblinville.com writes: << They're not "toxic" - if they were, you couldn't buy them.Ê Because = they Êcause problems for those with respiratory problems doesn't make them = toxic. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Foggers + a few questions From: "Robert Renk" Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:48:50 -0800 ÊI haven't found much difference from the HES F100 except the V950 doesn't have a DMX input. Karl First off, what is the DMX input for?Ê I have three foggers. 1 American DJ Fog Hog, 1 VEI V-925 and 1 VEI V-950.Ê I used the Fog Hog and the V-925 inside my gargoyle pillars this year.Ê the results were the fog hog worked great, but the V-925 appeared to over-heat and had to be shut off.Ê Also = the vacuum hose that I used to direct the fog through the gargoyles melted.Ê = Any suggestions anyone? - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Foggers + a few questions From: "Mat G" Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:02:24 -0500 the DMX input is for controlling the fogger from a professional lighting = console or other control system - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Foggers From: "Karl Fields" Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:51:35 -0800 For whatever it's worth, the VEI 950 has an output of 20,000cfm, can go continuous, timer, can use external fluid tank, etc. Can daisy chain together and goes for $200-$250. I haven't found much difference from the HES F100 except the V950 doesn't have a DMX input. Karl -----Original Message----- From:ÊÊ Halloween-L at WildRice.com [mailto:Halloween-L at WildRice.com] On Behalf Of brian liem Subject:ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Hall: Foggers After years of renting a fogger(rosco)from a movie production studio I decided to bite the bullet and purchase one. I got the Antari f80z which = is fine if you want to fog a small area for a short period of time...The heating element has to cycle way to soon for what Im looking for. Im = sending the fog thru a large chiller that i made and would like a heavy fog = blanket effect. Any feedback on a model/brand of fogger that has the industrial output without the large price tag is appreciated.Ê For those of you that have "you get what you pay for" rolling off your keyboards I already Know..:-). I just couldnt find any resources on the antari's performance = so i went with the cheapest one first. - - - - - Subject: Rosco makes fog juice for oil foggers!!!!!! From: Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:23:31 EST Was lookin through a rosco catolog and found oil free fluid for oil = cracker style foggers!description says it reduces build up on surfaces in the = room. Happy Foggin!! - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Health Problems with Fog Machines on NPR From: "Brian D. Oberquell" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:14:17 -0800 I've put some reprints of articles on glycol fog up on my Web site: http://www.wizardsdenspfx.com/ldfog.pdf (from Lighting Dimensions = magazine) http://www.wizardsdenspfx.com/NIOSHfog.pdf (summary of NIOSH/OSHA report on glycol fog) They require Acrobat Reader which you can get for free at www.adobe.com FWIW, I've been around a lot of fog in my life and while it does dry out the eyes and throat, I've had no other problems with it. Of course, YMMV. - - - - - Subject: Fog dangers (?) From: "Chad Croteau" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:40:05 -0500 Hey everyone... I've been reading the postings on the dangers of theatrical fog... Hopefully, I'll be able to shed some light onto some of the stuff that's being said, as this was the topic for my major research assignment in my university Theatre Safety course... First off, several tests have been done on fog and it's toxic = properties... All the tests came back saying that theatrical fog, when properly = produced, using the right fluid for the right machine, and heating the fluid to the proper temperatures, the fog is harmless... Although one company went as = far as to boast that it was LESS toxic than water, which is stretching it... However, the following warnings were given on the reports: 1) Fog equipment must be maintained so as to guarantee it's proper function, meaning that it needs to be cleaned, and you need to use the = right fluid for the machine, to make sure that you don't overheat the fluid and create some nasty gasses (yes it can happen), or underheat the fluid and create an EXTREMELY slippery oil residue on the floor. 2) Fog equipment should be placed onstage (or in the room) so as to minimize the exposure to the actors and audience. 3) The least amount of fog necessary to produce the effect should be = used. 4) Exposure to fog CAN trigger some symptoms, such as asthma attacks, dry throat, coughing, etc. Also important to note that a good deal of the people who start hacking = and coughing in the auditorium are suffering from imagination disease... Psychosomatic symptoms... They see smoke rolling at them, and they start = to hack and cough and wheeze with no reason to do so... However, there ARE legitimate cases... That's why it's polite to post fog warnings at the entrance to the haunt... Anyway, sorry for the length... If you guys like, I can post the locations of the fog safety reports on the list, and you can check them out if you wish... Just let me know... - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Radio Shack Fogger (was Fogger cleaning question) From: "WebMistress" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:18:03 -0700 I have a Radio Shack fogger .., I love it ... the auto on-off stuff. And = I DO NOT clean it. I run it once a month to make the neighbors wonder :) - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Which Type of Fog Cooler? From: "Allen" Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 01:47:45 -0500 >>Anyway to get around the dry ice? > >Try using regular ice, but a larger cooler.Ê We did this last year (big >marine cooler) and it worked very well. Yeah, I don't see the need for dry ice unless it's really cold out, close = to freezing, or maybe if you need the chiller to be really small. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Fog FAQ/Product Reviews Needed From: "Malcolm Little" Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:06:35 -0400 Well, just off the top... -How can I make it run without my finger on the button? -When and how should I clean my fogger? -What's the best way to store it for a year? -Is the fog safe to breathe? (see next...) -Are there any health risks/should I post warnings to my patrons/crew? -Can I repair my own fogger? -Where can I get parts? -What is the most common failure? -How long will my ____ watt fogger run on a full tank? -Will it hurt if it runs dry? -How can I make my fog stay low on the ground? -How long an extension cord can I use with my fogger? -What is the typical shelf life of fog fluid? -Will I hurt the fluid if I store it in the attic? In Florida? -Can I get fluid that won't bother athsmatics? -Will the floor get slippery? How can I prevent this? -Do I need an MSDS for the fluid? -My fogger set off the smoke detector - what can be done? -Malcolm I'm writting a fog machine FAQ for my site and Need some questions that = you often see on the list. Heres what I have so far: -Are there any colored or UV/blacklight reactant fog? -Can I use any fog juice in my fog machine? -How big of a fogger do I need? -What do cf/min (cubic feet per minute) and wattage mean? -Can I use my fogger outside? -My fog machine puts out little puffs when warmed/warming up. Is this normal? I am actually doing some work on the site and I could really use any = reviews on products (fog machines, fog juice, chiller plans, controllers/remotes, ect.). I do not have the money nor will companies give me the stuff to review for free :( so any help with this would be appreciated. Thanks David www.geocities.com/jnamco666 - - - - - Subject: Re: Howl - Graveyard fog From: "Tim D" Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 22:03:04 -0700 The evaporation from wet grass should help keep the cool foggy layer of = air cooler than the ambient air. -The Enchanter (There are some who call me ...'Tim'?) Visit www.hauntinggrounds.org "Nostri Spectaculum Fabricatum Stercois" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Goblin" To: "HOWL2000 Mailing List" Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 11:43 PM Subject: Re: Howl - Graveyard fog > The warmer the air the more effective a fog chiller is. If it is really going to be 80 > degrees a fog chiller will give you the most awesome of ground hugging fogs. > > As to wetting the ground, well if it was dry ice fog it would help as = dry ice fog > needs the moisture to stay as fog. With regular fog though it is really just smoke and > the idea is to cool the fog to a temperature lower than the surrounding air so the fog > will settle. If you wet the ground I would think this would cause the temperature at > ground level to drop causing your fog to rise. Counter productive. My brain may just > be sleeping though. - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: Ghostly Mist Wanted From: "Dennis Griesser" Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:18:57 -0700 >A TV program this spring showed that an eery ghostly mist could be caused = by >mixing the following chemicals - and here is where I show my complete >ignorance - acetic acid and *psy-co-hex-al-a-mene* (phonetically = speaking, >of course). I realize that this was a fictional drama and that they = might >have just been blowing smoke (cute, huh?) but does anyone know? Also, = can >it be done without killing anyone? Thanks to the chemists out there. There are several ways that you can mix two chemicals and get a mist. But none are safe. For a long time, close-up magicians have used hydrochloric acid in the palm of one hand and ammonia in the other - bring the hands together and mime smoking a pipe, and you get smoke. The smoke is actually composed of tiny ammonium chloride crystals in the air. You don't want to breathe the ammonium chloride crystals, and the liquids can be dangerous. There is also a one-component smoke fluid, a titanium/chlorine compound, that smokes by itself when exposed to damp air. Ages ago, it was used for sky-writing. But with the smoke, it produced hydrochloric acid fumes. Nobody uses that one anymore, either. I would sick to glycol foggers and ultrasonic misters. Start here: - - - - - Subject: Re: Ghostly Mist Wanted From: "Allan Faust" Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:53:50 -0400 Acetic acid is vinegar (vinegar is 5% pure acetic acid....) In its pure state, it is quite corrosive. Cyclohexamine is a volatile (will evaporate = if left sitting on the table) amine that is used in pharmaceutical drugs, as well as in water treatment to prevent corrosion in boilers and water = towers (large air conditioning systems for buildings). It will cause a fog, however I'm not sure of the toxicology of the by-products, and just the fume from the acetic acid (if pure) will cause throat and nose irritation..... of course, if its just at a "vinegar" concentration, it shouldn't be too bad, especially if they mentioned it in = a "how-to" special effects television production. As for where to get the cyclohexamine, you'd have to check with a company that sells chemicals = such as Fisher Scientific.... I would require more info on the "toxicology" of = it (a sheet that would be furnished with the chemical to be able to say = more... Allan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justus" To: "Halloween" Sent: 26 Jul 2001 2:58 PM Subject: Hall: Ghostly Mist Wanted > A TV program this spring showed that an eery ghostly mist could be = caused by > mixing the following chemicals - and here is where I show my complete > ignorance - acetic acid and *psy-co-hex-al-a-mene* (phonetically = speaking, > of course). I realize that this was a fictional drama and that they = might > have just been blowing smoke (cute, huh?) but does anyone know? Also, = can > it be done without killing anyone? Thanks to the chemists out there. - - - - - Subject: Fogger and fog fluid at Radio Shack From: "capdiamont" Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:03:10 -0700 In the Radio Shack flyer I got in the mail today, they have a 1,000 watt fogger with remote 970-1267 $199.99 700 watt version with remote, 33ft cord, and "3,300 cu. ft. of for per minute." 970-1330 $89.99 1 quart fog fluid 970-1269 $10.99 1 gal " 970-1268 $29.99 ok, so they aren't on sale. Think they was.... However they have CPU cooling fans on sale, maybe good for a small = project. Prices good till 25 Aug - - - - - Subject: Dry ice info From: "Josh Coen" Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 14:47:40 -0700 If anyone needs a good source of info on dry ice... What you can do with it= , how much you'll need for a particular prop, and all the technical stuff, just came across this... http://www.dryiceinfo.com/ Anyone living in Orange County, that's where these guys are, so you can get the goods there! - - - - - Subject: Fogger Story From: "Randy M. Karshner" Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 00:49:48 -0400 Got a few questions I was hoping some of you nice folks could help me = with. First I'll start with a great story that would have even Homer Simpson yelling, "Doh!". I bought the Fogmaster from lite f/x tonight and couldn't wait to get it = home and give it a try. I hooked up the timer and in around 4 mins watched the first little stream of smoke come out. I didn't think that was very much so I set the timer for a full 10 second stream. I got way more then I bargined for. That first 10 second stream instantly filled the apartment with fog thicker then you could see through then it suddenly hit me, "The Smoke Detector". I immediately opened the patio door and set a fan up to blow the smoke outside. The question I have is will the fog set off the smoke detector? I know the smallest amount of smoke sets one off but the fog didn't seem to phase it. I thought maybe = it's because I got all the fog out before it had a chance to hit it.... Its amazing the difference in prices.. I bought the fogmaster from The = Party Source for $79.99 and have seen it numerous places on the internet for $119. The Fog juice was also $8.99 at party source, $14.99 at spencers. I left the fogjuice from Spencers and bought one of the hanging mini-flames instead ;-) - - - - - Subject: Re: Fogger Story From: "dawn rice" Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 06:48:48 -0500 I'm not sure if different type of fog juice work differently on smoke detectors or not, but the ones we have go off with them. Most detectors = go off when ion particles hit them. (I think this is the correct thing) anyway, we have had to put fan near them to help keep them from going off----I don't think this really works well for the detectors purposes though. In Sioux Falls, SD our fire marshall wanted a detector in every room we built. (Our house is one big open space that we construct 4X8 plywood panels together. Because we have rooms all over and had to have = one in each room (the rooms had no ceilings) they went off really easy. Our house is now on county property and the County Fire Marshall is not as = fussy as the City so we don't have to have as many. Hopefully you don't have = the same challenge. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Fogger Story From: "M. Little" Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:35:46 -0400 Fog will usually set off a smoke detector. There are two main types of smoke detectors - one uses a light source and detector, the other an ion detector. I am not certain whether or not fog will trigger an ion detector (or how readily) but it will definitely trigger a photodetector model. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Fogger Story From: "Rob Withoff" Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 17:09:22 -0500 > The question I have is will the fog set off the smoke detector? Depends on the detector. Ion detectors (the most common) probably won't, because the fog doesn't have the bybroducts of combustion. Optical = detectors probably will if the fog is thick enough. - - - - - Subject: RE: Hall: Haunted storm drains From: "Rowan" Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:23:50 -0400 Josh, In regards to doing something with this storm drain: low tech - just drop = a couple blocks of dry ice into the thing right when it gets dark and you'll have fog pour out of it. I'm not sure where you are, but if it's chill enough on Halloween, some nice blocks should work nicely. *chuckle* The best night we ever had with the dry ice was also the night that it snowed about a foot. The fog crawled off the porch, down the stairs, covered the yard and started down the street, all from one little cauldron. We heard comments coming from the corner five houses down to = the effect of "oh, oh! Look at that fog, they must have that great haunted house set up again." Imagine, TOTs in costume AND snow boots! You really don't need a lot more than dry ice and maybe a few glow sticks = if you don't want to spend a lot of time on it. And I'd hang the glow sticks to be retrieved afterwards so that they don't get swept into the sewer system later. Rowan "Never argue with a Red-haired Witch; it wastes your time and only delays the inevitable." ~Wiz Zumwalt~ ---- Original Message ---- Cool ideas. This or something similar could be the basis of the night's theme. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to spare a fogger. I'm going to try and get away with setting this up from the street and not having to trek into the tunnel. I only do this the night of Halloween, so I'm already overloaded with setup work! - - - - - Subject: Re: Hall: LeFog From: "Jeff Preston" Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:08:22 +0000 It's not the type of fog machine but the type of alarm. A regular smoke = alarm will be set off by fog but a heat/smoke detector alarm can differentiate between actual the two. Obviously more expensive but unless you want to spend most of the night "airing out" your building = and sprinting to shut the alarm off this is the way to go. - - - - -