This file is one of the Wolfstone archives of the Halloween mailing lists. You can find out more, and reach the entire collection here: http://www.pobox.com/~wolfstone/_r/HalloweenArchive.html This is a copy of Don Bertino's archive from http://www.calweb.com/~bertino/halloween.html on the subject of "fog". Minor changes have been made, mostly removal of E-mail headers and signatures, but the germane content is unchanged. - - From: Scott Axworthy Subject: Re: Foggy Nozzle Breakdown Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 13:15:31 -0700 (PDT) > Well we all knew the energy had to come from somewhere to atomize > water into fog. The fog nozzle I mentioned in the McMaster catalog can > put out a 20-60 micron fog at .5 gal. of water a minute. At 96 inches > away from the nozzle, the cone shape is expanding to a 30 inch > diameter. > Now for the energy...air use is 12 standard cubic feet a minute at > 100 psi. that's a 5 or 6 hp. air compressor running constantly. Ouch! Thats a big chunk of compressor. > Other sources for, or types of nozzles????? > Denny > I don't have any sources for this type of hardware but I have an uncle that used to be with a company that produced various types of water pumping gear. This is right up his alley. I'm going to have to give him a call. This last few days has really got me psyched to get developing new Halloween effects, but unfortunately duty calls. I have to go out of town for about 1 1/2 weeks. I'm not sure I'll have net access while I'm gone. We have our industry's big trade show next week in San Francisco and I have to head down and start setting up for it. If I can get a a stubborn router working Ill have a remote connection while I'm there. I will be back for about a week and then my wife and I head off for some real Halloween research. We are going to be in England and Scotland for about 3 weeks. Dank, haunted castles here we come. I'm hoping to find some inspiration for new effects. I'm going to keep my eye peeled for a suit of armour (anyone ever made one?) - - From: Scott Axworthy Subject: Re: And speaking of Disney fog... Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 13:13:29 -0700 (PDT) This is starting to have potential. > > The water fog actually may not be too far out. Fog nozzles for 20 to > 60 micron size water drops use 100 psi. max. compressed air and 40 psi. > water. These can be found in McMaster Carr catalogs for $159.00. (You > supply the air) These can put out 1/2 gal. per minute which is ALOT of > fog. For a finer fog what about the pressure sprayers sold at home > centers (noisy?)for cleaning, hooked up to a higher pressure rated fog > nozzle? I know Coleman makes one (sprayer that is). I'm sure distilled > or demineralized water should be used in fog nozzles. Just Thinking > > Denny > I was recently at Disneyland and thought the Pirates fog had changed. There seemed to be quite a bit more than I remember and there was more hissing. I have also seen similar fog in Las Vegas in the Luxor. Having to supply special water seems kind of a pain, but I bet your correct that it would be required. What kind of a pump would it take to get 40 psi, would small fountain pumps produce this much pressure? Compressed air is easy (well if I had a compressor it would be.) One other application I want to try that I haven't mentioned yet is video projection on a spray of water. (A'la Fantasmic) I have been experimenting with video ghost projection outside (it can be *really* creepy) but I want a better "screen" medium. Maybe a dual purpose water-based fog/screen mechanism needs to get in my queue of projects? - - Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 14:04:53 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: And speaking of Disney fog... Scott wrote: >I was recently at Disneyland and thought the Pirates fog had changed. There >seemed to be quite a bit more than I remember and there was more hissing. I have >also seen similar fog in Las Vegas in the Luxor. Having to supply special water >seems kind of a pain, but I bet your correct that it would be required. What >kind of a pump would it take to get 40 psi, would small fountain pumps produce >this much pressure? Compressed air is easy (well if I had a compressor it would >be.) I think they've designed these fog nozzles to use water line pressure, I've been told in my area water line pressure is 50 to 60 psi. That seems high to me, I've never checked myself, but I will. I'll ask McMaster for a spec. sheet on the nozzles for fun. An in line demineralizer cartridge or two wouldn't be too expensive (compared to the bloody nozzle) to help with junk and critters in the water. I have nothing to base what 20 to 60 micron fog would look like.? >One other application I want to try that I haven't mentioned yet is video projection >on a spray of water. (A'la Fantasmic) I have been experimenting with video ghost >projection outside (it can be *really* creepy) but I want a better "screen" medium. With out a doubt, a very cool effect! I think we all better plan on taking the rest of the year off to get working on Halloween. I'll check with my mortgage company, I'm sure it'll be o.k. with them. - - Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:35:34 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: (long post) Fog Machine Instructions BASIC FOG MACHINE WARNING: THE FOGGING PORTION OF THIS DEVICE WILL CAUSE SEVERE BURNS FROM THE HEAT SOURCE AND FOG EXITING THE NOZZLE. THIS SMOKE/FOG CONTAINS SUPERHEATED STEAM AND VAPOR AS IT LEAVES THE VAPORIZING COIL. ALL RESPONSIBILITY LIES WITH THE BUILDER USING THIS DESIGN TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND THE PUBLIC FROM ANY ACCIDENTS. THIS FOGGER PRESENTS A FIRE HAZARD IF USED NEAR ANY FLAMMABLE MATERIALS OR LEFT UNATTENDED. USE ONLY WATER BASED FOG JUICES. IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS ABOUT YOUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND, BUILD OR OPERATE THIS PROPERLY AND SAFELY...DO NOT PROCEED! Tools needed: drill, drill bits, various hand tools, tubing cutter or hacksaw Materials needed from hardware store: 75 to 150 watt electric soldering iron (150 is better than 75), 4 ft. of 3/16" diameter soft copper tubing (water supply line), 600 watt rotary incandescent light dimmer, light copper wire, small tube of silicone adhesive (can buy at pet shop also), electrical tape, assorted screws and stuff... Materials from pet shop: small diaphragm air pump, in line air valve (brass, needle type if they've got it), in line check valve (sold to prevent water leaking back to the pump from an aquarium, try to get the kind that has a rubber part inside that looks a little like a duck's bill or the type with a small spring and plunger, they work a bit faster than the flap type) Materials from hobby shop: 6ft. of 3/16 to 1/4" outside diameter SILICONE fuel line (used for model airplane engines) Silicone air line from a pet store could be used but has a thinner wall thickness. Make sure it's silicone. Misc. materials: 1 gallon plastic bottle with cap-the heavy type used for windshield washer fluid etc., Empty 46 to 64oz. or larger tin can from a cheap fruit drink, commercial water based fog juice or distilled water & glycerin, something to mount this stuff on What it's all for: Soldering iron- heat source, if you have access to a 200-400 watt, 110 volt industrial cartridge heater, 1/2 inch in diameter or better it will save a few bucks over the soldering iron Soft copper tubing- wrapped around the soldering iron as a vaporizing coil Rotary incandescent light dimmer- wired to soldering iron for heat control 1 gal. plastic bottle- fog juice reservoir Aquarium air pump- to pressurize the 1 gal. bottle to dispense fog juice, the air pump does not directly pump the juice (this is an old hydroponics farming trick) Check valve- keeps the juice going in the right direction between the bottle and vaporizing coil In line valve- controls juice flow to vaporizing coil Tin can- heat shield around soldering iron and coil Silicone fuel line- all plumbing from air pump to bottle and bottle to vaporizing coil Silicone adhesive- sealing silicone tubing to bottle cap Getting it together If the soldering iron came with a heat shield over the metal barrel portion, remove it. Take about 6" of the copper tubing in hand and starting at the handle end of the iron, wrap the rest of the tubing around the metal portion of the iron going towards the tip end. When you reach the tip, straighten out a 1" portion of the tube to point in the same direction as the tip. Leaving this 1" piece cut any excess tubing off. Sand or file the sharp edges off the inside and outside of each end of the tubing. At the 1" straight portion at the tip, take the copper tube and flatten it until you have a small slit. Blow through the tube to make sure it's not too small or sealed shut, you should get a fast stream of air out of the "nozzle". If the nozzle is too small, it could eventually clog and cause hot fog juice to burst from the silicone tubing feeding the coil. This assembly is the vaporizing coil of the fogger. The rotary incandescent light dimmer should be wired to one wire (hot leg if the plug is polarized) of the soldering iron to control the iron's output. If you are unsure on how to do this wiring or recognize the proper wire, find someone who can help. Cover any bare wire connections with electrical tape or heat shrink tubing. Take the cap from the bottle and drill two holes in it just slightly smaller than the silicone tubing. Take 2' of the silicone tubing and stick it in one hole so it goes inside the cap 1 inch. The other end of this first piece of tubing hooks directly to the air pump. Take your remaining 4' of silicone tube and put it through the other hole so there is enough hanging on the inside of the cap to easily reach the bottom of the bottle. The 3 or so feet of tubing hanging off the cap should be cut into sections to allow the insertion of the flow valve and check valve. It should go like this from the bottle... tubing from cap-flow valve-tubing-check valve-tubing-handle end of vaporizing coil. This is the fog juice feed line. Use the silicone sealant/glue to form fillets around the tubing on the inside and outside of the cap. Make sure the check valve allows flow from the bottle to the coil by blowing through the line at the bottle end. Twist some light copper wire around each of the connections on the juice line to ensure they stay on. To make the heat shield, cut centered holes in both ends of the tin can so the vaporizing coil is suspended inside the can by resting on the soldering iron handle and the 1" long nozzle at the other end. Punch holes around the outside of the can to allow air flow. This whole assemblage of parts can be mounted to plywood that has been covered with thin aluminum sheet or litho plate. Make some coat hanger wire legs and straps for the heat shield to hold it off the board and secure it from moving. For fog juice mix 15 to 35% glycerin to distilled water. Experiment, the less glycerin you use the cheaper and cleaner your fog will be but it will also be lighter and not last as long. Buying and using commercial fog juice is also recommended. Operation Let the soldering iron/vaporizing coil heat up for 10 minutes, close the flow valve, start the air pump. Open the valve and adjust for a very slow feed to start out. STAY AWAY FROM THE NOZZLE When the fog juice starts hitting the coil, smoke will blast out of the nozzle. If the flow is too fast or the coil too cool the nozzle will spit hot liquid, adjust the flow or the coil temp. so the spitting just stops, this also gives you the proper temperature. It will take a few minutes to get the system to settle down, start very slowly. Depending on how everything is adjusted the smoke/fog will come out as a fairly steady stream or may surge slightly on and off. Also remember: the lower you can run the heat the longer your soldering will last. Periodically check the silicone tubing and aquarium valves for effects or weakening from the fog juice. Always flush out the tubing with clean water when finished. While water based fog juices are fairly safe, do not let children or pets ingest any of the liquid, some chemicals used can cause sever liver and kidney damage. Avoid extended exposure to the fog, remember...if you can see the air your breathing it's probably not good for you. Options to improve operation and safety Thermostat on coil, set to 180 - 220C. Solenoid valve and a switch or timer to control flow on the feed line Weather proof housing for outdoor use Use a few hose clamps on the coil for better contact with the iron Wrap the coil in high temp. insulation to retain heat, (wrap the insulation with Teflon plumbers tape to hold it in place) Run two or three vaporizing coil assemblies off of one bottle and air pump Add a filter to the juice feed line Feel free to experiment! Denny - - Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 12:50:20 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Fog machine instructions Hey all, Another week wasn't needed, my next post will be the instructions for the fog machine I've been experimenting with. After going over it and building 2 versions my only conclusions are "it's really simple and puts out alot of fog". I'm sending this to warn people not to open my next post if they're not interesed in fog, it's a little long. - - Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 11:47:24 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Fog machine update After trying a few brands of silicone air line from pet stores I would suggest staying with silicone fuel line from a hobby shop. Two brands of the silicone pet store air line did not withstand the heat of the copper coil. The Hagen brand name being the worst, there was no way to indentify the house brands. - - From: Scott Axworthy Subject: Re: (long post) Fog Machine Instructions Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 11:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Denny: I'm finally back and have a bunch of halloween list messages to sort through but your fog machine design looks great. I have a commercial machine but like someone said previously, "You can't have too much fog at Halloween!" - - Subject: Re: And speaking of fog... Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 18:05:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > > As I mentioned previously, I tried piping my fog-juice fogger outside > > and it did kick out some good haze, but I want some real fog outdoors! > > I want huge volumes, on demand of course, to fill the area around my > > house. > > > > So what techniques are used for serious outdoor fog. I've heard of the > > oil cracker machines but I am not familiar with the technology. The problem with fog outdoors is that it blows away, so you have to keep making it. (As opposed to indoors where a 10 second burst will keep a closed room foggy for 5 minutes.) So needless to say, outdoors you need a really heavy duty machine. To get "huge volumes" outdoors, "on demand", you need more-expensive foggers, on the line of $600 and up purchase price. For this price, you can get a "continuous-duty" machine that will keep pumping it out. The best machine for this purpose is $1500 (gasp), but man will it put out. Regarding oil crackers, hazers, diffusion foggers, all of these are designed to make a haze, for the enhancement of lighting, etc. They won't make thick smoke indoors, so they're certainly not going to be able to do it outdoors. (The one advantage to oil cracker fog is that it should hang longer, without blowing away or dissipating as readily.) nathan at theatrefx.com - - Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 11:36:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: And speaking of fog... Scott Axworthy wrote: Hi Scott! > And speaking of fog effects, we have talked about indoor fog, but > what about outdoor fog. Even though we get our fair share of fog > here, you can't depend on a good Halloween fog rolling in. I'm > big on having the right mood. If you can set the mood, people's > imagination takes over and you don't need all the whiz bang effects. True... > As I mentioned previously, I tried piping my fog-juice fogger outside > and it did kick out some good haze, but I want some real fog outdoors! > I want huge volumes, on demand of course, to fill the area around my > house. > > So what techniques are used for serious outdoor fog. I've heard of the > oil cracker machines but I am not familiar with the technology. For some reason, I am thinking multiable dry ice machines mounted on the your roof :-) Have a string or such to lower the dry ice into the vat of warm-to-hot water... I can see fog rolling down the roof onto the ground. Of course it would be a pain to reload :-( I have heard there is a "chiller box" that you can use to *cool* the fog the comes out of a fog machine. Do these things use nitogen (sp?) or CO2? You could use that. That would make the fog *hang* around longer. Nathan, what do you think? - - From: TheLazer at aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 14:43:41 -0400 Subject: Fog Info Ok here is what the Mee Fog catalog has to say. Body of Nozzel. -Ally #316 Stainless Steel Orifice, were water is pushed out-.006" super smooth, high efficieny, low pressure drop. Impaction Pin-Alloy#304 Stainless steel Droplet Size 17micron Mass Mean Diameter at 1000psi What happens is this. Water is put under 1000psi forced out thur the Orifice whose size is.006, hits the Impact Pin and is broken up into small 17micron size droplets that, as soon as they hit the air. Condense into the fog. I had a price quote once for a system. It was called there Halloween system. I think it was for like 30 feet of fog nozzels spaced I think 5 inches apart. The price was somthing like 3000$ that included the Pump, extra nozzels and tubeing ect. According to them you can find there systems in use at such places as. Disney World, Mirage Resort, Six Flags. If you like you may call. 1-800-Real-Fog and talk to the MeeFog People yourself There addreass is. Mee Industries Inc 4443 N.Rowland Ave El Monte CA 91731 Tel 818-350-4180 Fax 818-350-4196 U.S 1-800-732-5364 - - Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 08:56:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: Fog Info On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 TheLazer at aol.com wrote: > Ok here is what the Mee Fog catalog has to say. [great info snipped] > If you like you may call. 1-800-Real-Fog and talk to the MeeFog People > yourself Hi Jay! Great knowledge! Thanks for researching that. Jason Badger who works in the sound dept. at DL said he thought it was 140PSI water and heavily filtered, but would get back to me with more. - - Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 17:17:16 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: And speaking of fog... Scott wrote: > >And speaking of fog effects, we have talked about indoor fog, but >what about outdoor fog. Even though we get our fair share of fog >here, you can't depend on a good Halloween fog rolling in. I'm >big on having the right mood. If you can set the mood, people's >imagination takes over and you don't need all the whiz bang effects. > >As I mentioned previously, I tried piping my fog-juice fogger outside >and it did kick out some good haze, but I want some real fog outdoors! >I want huge volumes, on demand of course, to fill the area around my >house. > >So what techniques are used for serious outdoor fog. I've heard of the >oil cracker machines but I am not familiar with the technology. > >Anyone have any ideas? > >Scott >scott at cdac.com > My limited understanding of oil crackers is that are very effective under spot and stage lighting but of little use in what we're looking for. Perhaps someone on the list has some actual experience with them. On the safety note I'll post some NIOSH suggested vapor limits for polyehtylene and polypropylene glycols and also some notes on urethane foams. My material safety data sheet file is basically a large box since new ones are sent with just about everything industrial these days. - - Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 21:01:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Ex-Phone Guy Subject: Re: And speaking of fog... There has been some discussion on the Stagecraft mailing list on the cracked oil foggers. It is the opinion of several people there that they are not safe to breathe. Rosco makes several different sizes of their line of foggers. The bigger ones (the Omega-XT and the 4500) should put out as much fog as you could ever want. If low-lying fog is what you're looking for (just covering the ground can be as effective as filling the air, if not better) dry ice might be the way to go. One or two large drums full of heated water and a block or two of dry ice is all you need. The best part is, it doesn't smell like fake fog. Happy haunting. - - Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 17:39:03 -0700 From: Scott Axworthy Subject: More fog As I mentioned in my last article I have two fog machines now. The first is a dry-ice machine and the second is a commercial fog-juice machine sold by American DJ. I have been trying to come up with fog solutions for a long time and finally gave up and bought one last halloween. The dry-ice machine I built eons ago and works great. It is built from a 30 gallon drum and has a heating element and a fan. It works very well for ground hugging fog but dry ice is now ridiculously expensive. I used to do lighting, sound, and effects for bands in college and I would buy a 50 lb block for about $15.00. That would produce a *lot* of fog. Now dry-ice is as much as $1.00 lb. This is not very cost effective but I use it once in a while when I need a good ground hugging fog. It is also labor intensive, you have to fill it early and get it heating up, chop up your ice right before you use it, and operate it when you need it. I mostly use the drum for a fog distribution vehicle now. I can give some more construction detail if someone is interested. I experimented for a long time with smoke producing chemicals and fog juice. I even bought a bug fogger (like someone mentioned) and had mixed results. The bug fogger (I never used bug juice in it) was made by Burgess. They had two models, a propane powered unit and a electric unit. I thought that the propane unit would be kind of noisely and dangerous (open flame) so I got the electric. Unfortunately the electric model uses a pump like those used in airless paint sprayers. It is LOUD! So I disabled the pump and plumbed in a hand activated sprayer. The spraying orifice never produced a very fine mist so I didn't get very good results. It did work a little but there are other problems that I didn't know about then. The fog-juice, as other people have mentioned, may produce harmful by-products if over heated. The most widely used fog producing chemicals are propylene glycol and triethylene glycol. When over heated, these chemicals can produce acrolein and formaldehyde. Commercial foggers with proper thermostats will not overheat the fog juice and several studies and evaluations by NIOSH have shown that they do not produce these dangerous products. So if you make your own, be sure to carefully control the temperature. Even if you buy a fogger you still have to get the fog where you want it. A fog distribution system can really help if you want to maximize your fogger's capabilities. The best fog distribution systems consist of a fog reservoir, a blower, and flexible tubing to deliver the fog where you want it. The blower is typically enclosed within a reservoir box and blows directly into the tubing. The fog machine is aimed at a opening in the reservoir box. The blower produces suction in the box and the fog is drawn in. The fog is then distributed out the tubing. The extra air pulled in helps increase the volume of fog produced as well. I used my dry-ice fogger as my reservoir as it already had a blower mounted on it and tubing attachments. I directed tubes outside, and into my shop and garage. I used dryer vent ducting for my tubes but you can also use ADS flexible drainage pipe. I then fed the pipe into carved pumpkins. These pumpkins had a large hole cut in the back for the tubing and used lights instead of candle. The fog shooting out of the eyes and mouth looked great. - - Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 13:36:16 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Start of fogger text Hi Don, F.Y.I. Here's the beginning of the fogger instructions, you'll get the idea of how it works. I built one of these in a about an hour, it'll fill the house in less than 5 minutes. A bigger cartridge heater or soldering iron would even be better. A thermostat on the coil would make control easier BASIC FOG MACHINE WARNING: THE FOGGING PORTION OF THIS MACHINE WILL CAUSE SEVERE BURNS FROM THE HEAT SOURCE AND FOG EXITING THE NOZZLE. THIS SMOKE/FOG IS ACTUALLY SUPERHEATED STEAM AS IT LEAVES THE VAPORIZING COIL. ALL RESPONSIBLITY LIES WITH EACH BUILDER USING THIS DESIGN TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND THE PUBLIC FROM ANY ACCIDENTS. THIS FOGGER WILL ALSO PRESENT A FIRE HAZARD IF NOT USED AWAY FROM FLAMMABLE MATERIALS OR IF IT IS LEFT UNATTENDED. USE ONLY WATER BASED FOG JUICES. IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS ABOUT YOUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND, BUILD OR OPERATE THIS PROPERLY AND SAFELY...DON'T! Tools needed: drill, drill bits, various hand tools, tubing cutter or hacksaw Materials needed, from hardware store: 75 to 150 watt electric soldering iron (150 is better than 75), 3 ft. 3/16 diameter soft copper tubing (water supply line), 600 watt rotary incandescent light dimmer, small tube of silicone adhesive (can buy at pet shop also), assorted screws and stuff Materials from pet shop: small diaphragm air pump, inline air valve (brass, needle type if they've got it), inline check valve (sold to prevent water leaking back to pump from an aquarium) Materials from hobby shop: 6ft. of 3/16 outside diameter SILICONE fuel line (used for model airplane engines) Misc. materials: 1 gallon plastic bottle with cap-the heavy type used for windshield washer fluid etc., 46 to 64oz. or larger tin can of cheap fruit drink (don't open yet), distilled water, glycerin, something to mount this stuff on What it's all for: Soldering iron- heat source Soft copper tubing- wrapped around the soldering iron as a vaporizing coil Rotary incandescent light dimmer- wired to soldering iron for heat control 1 gal. plastic bottle- fog juice reservoir Aquarium air pump- to pressurize the 1 gal. bottle to dispense fog juice, this air pump does not directly pump the juice (this is an old hydroponics farming trick) Check valve- keeps the juice going in the right direction between the bottle and vaporizing coil Inline valve- controls juice flow to vaporizing coil Tin can- heat shield around soldering iron and coil Silicone fuel line- all plumbing to the coil Silicone adhesive- sealing silicone tubing to bottle cap - - Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 15:04:22 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: Start of fogger text You wrote: >Yo Don, > >1) Have you taken the temp of the soldering iron? What was the best temp for you? Yes, the coils were hitting 220 to 230 C. The iron hit 350. >2) How many times did you rap the copper tube around the iron? Did you have it only one tube deep? or two deep? One row deep, 8 wraps >3) How did you make really good contact between the tube and the iron? Didn't, could use some heat transfer putty I suppose. >4) How long did it take to warm up? Did you run it for long? Did it cool down and need a re-warm up period? Since there isn't a thermostat it took around 15 minutes for everything to settle down. It just runs continuous. Easy to add a timer, solenoid or thermostat. >5) How did you use the copper coil: i.e. How much used to rap iron, lead from iron to check-valve so forth? I didn't measure the copper, just wrapped as much on as I could. The silicone tubing goes to the check valve from the copper. Use the flow valve and rotary dimmer to keep things balanced. Too much fluid will cool down the coils. Too much voltage will give the iron a heart attack. A bigger wattage cartridge heater or iron would help with balance. Form a nozzle (flatten) at the exit end of the copper tubing to build a slight amount of back pressure in the coils. - - From: TheLazer at aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 11:05:27 -0400 Subject: Re: And speaking of fog... Okay, so if you want ALOT of fog that covers the gound and stays there, and you want it cost-effective, there is only one way to go! MeeFog! It works by takeing water and forcing it out very small nozzels at 1000PSI the water then vaporizes and condenses into the fog, it stays on the ground for a long and looks really COOL!. If you ever get to Walt Disney World, you can see what it look like by going to EPCOT95 and watching the water ballot show that is done every half hour at the Innovations fountein. Jay ---> Spelling, what spelling? - - Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 09:30:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: And speaking of fog... On Mon, 5 Jun 1995 TheLazer at aol.com wrote: > Okay, so if you want ALOT of fog that covers the gound and stays there, and > you want it cost-effective, there is only one way to go! > > MeeFog! It works by takeing water and forcing it out very small nozzels at > 1000PSI the water then vaporizes and condenses into the fog, it stays on the > ground for a long and looks really COOL!. If you ever get to Walt Disney > World, you can see what it look like by going to EPCOT95 and watching the > water ballot show that is done every half hour at the Innovations fountein. Hi Jay! The same system is used in DL's Pirates of the Caribbean. I have heard it is the only system that has *no* side effects. High Maintenace though... Is this commerically available anywhere? - - Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 11:46:38 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: And speaking of Disney fog... The water fog actually may not be too far out. Fog nozzles for 20 to 60 micron size water drops use 100 psi. max. compressed air and 40 psi. water. These can be found in McMaster Carr catalogs for $159.00. (You supply the air) These can put out 1/2 gal. per minute which is ALOT of fog. For a finer fog what about the pressure sprayers sold at home centers (noisy?)for cleaning, hooked up to a higher pressure rated fog nozzle? I know Coleman makes one (sprayer that is). I'm sure distilled or demineralized water should be used in fog nozzles. Just Thinking - - Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 09:47:33 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: And speaking of fog... You wrote: > >Okay, so if you want ALOT of fog that covers the gound and stays there, and >you want it cost-effective, there is only one way to go! > >MeeFog! It works by takeing water and forcing it out very small nozzels at >1000PSI the water then vaporizes and condenses into the fog, it stays on the >ground for a long and looks really COOL!. If you ever get to Walt... Hmmm...I can do 1,000 psi.but the garden hose won't. Actually, the ultrasonic vaporizer I use in my gargoyle is very similar. How about a giant or least very big ultrasonic transducer? Anyone? - - From: dbell at cup.portal.com Subject: Re: And speaking of fog... Date: Mon, 5 Jun 95 11:32:48 PDT > Hmmm...I can do 1,000 psi.but the garden hose won't. Actually, the >ultrasonic vaporizer I use in my gargoyle is very similar. How about a >giant or least very big ultrasonic transducer? Anyone? >Denny Gee, Denny - are you *really* into inflating hot water bottles, or whatever the power lift/muscle guys are doing this year? Seriously, there could be a couple of ways to do this... I would look into a replacement pump from a high pressure reverse osmosis filter or desalinizer. The bare pump *might* not be too hideously expensive! I understood these ran up around 1000 psi; anyone? A cheaper alternative would be to buy or have built an extremely strong pressure pot, which you could run in "batch" mode, by filling with water and pressurising with a Nitrogen tank. CO2 only runs 520 psi or so, if kept cool, but if the tank sits in the sun, it can go above the point where all the product is in gas form, and start pushing 1800 psi. I think the variability here would be a problem. Plus, I think CO2 is more soluable in water than N2. - - From: TheLazer at aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 09:16:45 -0400 Subject: Notes on FOG Yes, the water must be filterd first. You really dont want to be cleaing and uncloggin the nozzels every other second. Also, the water must be at a very high pressur. If you try it at a low PSI 50 or 60, all you get is a mist, that doesnt last long. But at 1000PSI, well it lasts, looks quite alot like a LN2 type of fog! - - Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 15:29:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: And speaking of Disney fog... On Mon, 5 Jun 1995, D.D. wrote: > Scott wrote: > >I was recently at Disneyland and thought the Pirates fog had changed. There > >seemed to be quite a bit more than I remember and there was more hissing. > >I have also seen similar fog in Las Vegas in the Luxor. Having to supply > >special water seems kind of a pain, but I bet your correct that it would be > >required. What kind of a pump would it take to get 40 psi, would small > >fountain pumps produce this much pressure? Compressed air is easy (well > >if I had a compressor it would be.) > > I think they've designed these fog nozzles to use water line pressure, > I've been told in my area water line pressure is 50 to 60 psi. That > seems high to me, I've never checked myself, but I will. I'll ask > McMaster for a spec. sheet on the nozzles for fun. An in line > demineralizer cartridge or two wouldn't be too expensive (compared to > the bloody nozzle) to help with junk and critters in the water. I have > nothing to base what 20 to 60 micron fog would look like.? I have a couple a friends who work at Disney tech services. I have fired a question to them regarding POTC fog... Hope to get an answer in the next day or two.. I am trying to get one of them to join the list! ;-) > >One other application I want to try that I haven't mentioned yet is > video projection > >on a spray of water. (A'la Fantasmic) I have been experimenting with > video ghost > >projection outside (it can be *really* creepy) but I want a better > "screen" medium. Here I am thinking, the stuff I am dreaming about is grand but.... Wow! > With out a doubt, a very cool effect! I think we all better plan on > taking the rest of the year off to get working on Halloween. I'll check > with my mortgage company, I'm sure it'll be o.k. with them. Bwahahahhahahah! - - Date: Tue, 06 Jun 1995 16:25:32 -0700 From: wakko at kaiwan.com (Jason A. Badger) 140 PSI Water Pressure and HEAVILY Filtered. ______________________________________________________ J a s o n A l e x a n d e r B a d g e r A n a h e i m , C a l i f o r n i a - - Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 07:49:44 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Fog nozzles Hi Don Those water fog nozzles sound interesting, can't wait to hear more. The fog machine I'm working on works well. So after some more testing and experimenting I'll get it posted for the people that may be interested in that type (fog juice) of system. Actually I guess, you can't have too much fog on Halloween. Using a relatively small heat source when compared to commercial machines and not having an over long vaporizing coil should prevent decomposition from over heating. Most decomp. byproducts are CO2 and some CO. using fog juices based on glycols or glycerols. - - Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 07:58:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: Fog nozzles On Wed, 7 Jun 1995, D.D. wrote: Hi Denny! > Those water fog nozzles sound interesting, can't wait to hear more. Neither can I! :-) > The fog machine I'm working on works well. So after some more testing > and experimenting I'll get it posted for the people that may be > interested > in that type (fog juice) of system. Actually I guess, you can't have > too much fog on Halloween. Using a relatively small heat source when > compared to commercial machines and not having an over long vaporizing > coil should prevent decomposition from over heating. Most decomp. > byproducts are CO2 and some CO. using fog juices based on glycols or > glycerols. I haven't had time to build your design yet, but hopefully in the next few weeks I can. The design looks good. It's a beautiful thing... ;-) - - Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 12:03:36 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Foggy Nozzle Breakdown Well we all knew the energy had to come from somewhere to atomize water into fog. The fog nozzle I mentioned in the McMaster catalog can put out a 20-60 micron fog at .5 gal. of water a minute. At 96 inches away from the nozzle, the cone shape is expanding to a 30 inch diameter. Now for the energy...air use is 12 standard cubic feet a minute at 100 psi. that's a 5 or 6 hp. air compressor running constantly. Other sources for, or types of nozzles????? - - Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 14:21:58 EDT From: lewisw at oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bill Lewis) Subject: My Graveyard I just subscribed to this group, so I thought there might be an interest in my last haloween project, The Graveyard. I made 5 tombstones from styrofoam, that was leftover from a house construction project nearby (Brick filler material to the poured foundation). I carved the "stones" using an old GE electric carving knife, which I had bought years before at a yard sale (and held on to for just this kind of work). The stones are totally 3 dimensional, scull head, bat and cross are some of the features. I painted them with some flat grey paint (exterior latex, enamel dissolves the foam) that, interestingly enough had the name "tombstone". I also carved names in the stones using a soldering iron. To place the stones in the yard, I used 2' pieces of rebar pounded into the ground, and pushed the stone over it, which "drilled" it's own hole. To surround the 'yard, I used some very old metal fencing that I literally dug up out of the back yard (~100 y.o. house). To top it off I bought some packages of the spiderwebbing and draped it on the stones, and fence. I lit the whole thing with a blue flood light. I have some pictures that I be glad to scan and send to anyone who might be interested. I, unfortunately, don't have an area that I can place them for ftp'ing. But if you know how to handle uuencode/decode or can handle BinHex with your email attachments then you are good to go. Or if anyone can suggest a place to put them I can do that too. - - Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 20:47:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: More Disney fog On Wed, 14 Jun 1995, D.D. wrote: Hi Denny! > Not long ago the group had discussed producing water based fog as used > in Disney World as I believe Jay had mentioned. The expensive fog > nozzles I found in McMaster Carr needed a 5 hp. air compressor running > continuous. NOT GOOD! I am trying to find more info on these... Have sent a couple of email to someone how works in Disney Mant. but havne't receive anything back yet. I expect anyday... (tick tock tick tock.:-) > Since I order all the time from them I purchased a couple of cheap > water nozzles to try. These only cost $3.00 each and have built in > filters. > They do not produce a fog but turn out a very fine heavy mist. They > might be good hooked up in a line on a piece of pvc pipe hanging and > hidden in a tree. The mist could then be used for projecting on,? but > only if viewed from a distance because of some dripping. The heavy > nature of the mist would help fight the wind. If anyone wants the part > numbers let me know. Any word on those Mee nozzles? Now this has possiabilities! You know, I have these things in my backyard. Here in Sacramento, CA it gets hot (105 with 30 humity) I put in a 1/2 drip line across my fence and have plugged a bunch of 3 gph misters in to help cool us off. Mine run off 20psi and are filtered at the source. In the heat, they would not get the ground wet.. At night, it would hang around alot longer. This is a "warm weather" device though, I am sure in 10 degree weather, you would have a pile of ice dust on the ground ;-) - - Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:58:58 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: More Disney fog Not long ago the group had discussed producing water based fog as used in Disney World as I believe Jay had mentioned. The expensive fog nozzles I found in McMaster Carr needed a 5 hp. air compressor running continuous. NOT GOOD! Since I order all the time from them I purchased a couple of cheap water nozzles to try. These only cost $3.00 each and have built in filters. They do not produce a fog but turn out a very fine heavy mist. They might be good hooked up in a line on a piece of pvc pipe hanging and hidden in a tree. The mist could then be used for projecting on,? but only if viewed from a distance because of some dripping. The heavy nature of the mist would help fight the wind. If anyone wants the part numbers let me know. Any word on those Mee nozzles? - - Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 15:06:06 -0700 From: Scott Axworthy Subject: And speaking of fog... And speaking of fog effects, we have talked about indoor fog, but what about outdoor fog. Even though we get our fair share of fog here, you can't depend on a good Halloween fog rolling in. I'm big on having the right mood. If you can set the mood, people's imagination takes over and you don't need all the whiz bang effects. As I mentioned previously, I tried piping my fog-juice fogger outside and it did kick out some good haze, but I want some real fog outdoors! I want huge volumes, on demand of course, to fill the area around my house. So what techniques are used for serious outdoor fog. I've heard of the oil cracker machines but I am not familiar with the technology. - - Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 14:27:01 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Early fog results Here are some things I've found on producing smoke or fog that work. First method- Heat glycerin (available at drug store) in a small metal dish or pan, a tablespoon full is plenty to experiment with. A metal bottle cap with the glycerin sitting in a small adjustable electric fry pan would be perfect. Heat the glycerin to around 395 to 400 degrees F. (DANGER! this is big burn territory) and blow air across it...breath, fan, small air jet. Be careful not to blow hot glycerin around. This does work and produces a large amount of light weight fog that is not flamable. Building this system with a fry pan and fan into a unit should not be difficult. Second method- Call J&R Music World at (1-800) 221-8180 and buy a disco fogger for $129.95, smoke fluid is $24.95 a gallon. As I find more, I'll let you know. Denny "helmets only make clean-up easier" - - Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 14:30:41 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Water pressure for fog nozzles Yup, the water pressure at the garden hose is an easy 50 psi. I have town supplied water in a suburb of Chicago. In a small product development company I managed a few years ago the water came from a well and I know that the pressure tank for the water always read a 60 to 80 psi range. This range was set by the pump controler. - - Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 11:04:33 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: smoke and fog How does one build a smoke generator as used in dance clubs and movies? Not the dry ice type, but the type that uses a heating coil and safe fluid. Bug foggers use a kerosene base fluid which can be dangerous. Last year I put together a gargoyle that breaths smoke (ultrasonic vaporizer from Wal-Mart in the base) which looked good. I'd like to get more smoke for the entire scene. - - Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 12:56:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: smoke and fog On Tue, 30 May 1995, D.D. wrote: Hi Denny! (again :-) > How does one build a smoke generator as used in dance clubs and > movies? Not the dry ice type, but the type that uses a heating coil and > safe fluid. There are plans for a home built smoke generator in the rec.pyrotechnics FAQ but it involves melting alminum (sp?) around a copper tubing core. > Bug foggers use a kerosene base fluid which can be > dangerous. I am assuming you are talking about a bug fogger that has either a electric heater or propane heater built into it? My neibhor use to be in a band in the 60's and 70's and said he use to put fog juice into a bug fogger and it work great! (of course it had *NEVER* been used to spray pecticides.) I had talked about it over in rec.pyrotechnics and some says its ok but might gum it up. Make sure to clean it after every use. One person said to the heat up the liquid too high. YMMV. > Last year I put together a gargoyle that breaths smoke > (ultrasonic vaporizer from Wal-Mart in the base) which looked good. I'd > like to get more smoke for the entire scene. You know... Foggers run between $500 on up. There is a company in town that rents them for $40 a night and $60 per week. For the one week I want it, $60 is just right (between ouch! and zing!). Check with your local stage/prop houses. That why you don't have to worry about repairing it if it breaks. If you want it for more than just a week, I don't know. One company on the net that sells alot of good stuff and if you email then will send a catalog to you is theatrefx at aol.com. - - Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 15:31:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Ex-Phone Guy Subject: Re: smoke and fog It's much more trouble than it's worth to try to make one. I strongly recommend you rent/buy one from your local theatrical supplier. - - Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 05:22:30 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Smoke and fog generators How to give your spouse's divorce lawyer even more ammunition Taking the information our own Don Bertino pointed me towards and what I've messed around with in the past... I've come up with my own design for a home built fog machine. I do mechanical engineering and product development for a living (own business) so this is very similar to what I do every day. If there is interest in the group (Don?) I'll post instructions to the main list in a few weeks when my testing is done or send me your E-mail address and I'll get the info. to you if the group does not want a lengthy post. The machine w/pump should cost under $100.00 to build if your handy with hardware store type projects. The fog juice is non-flammable and relatively non-toxic (glycerin/water based). If ya burn down the house, yer on yer own! Denny (startin' early for a change this year) - - From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: Smoke and fog generators You wrote: > >Denny: > > I would be very interested in seeing your design... A couple >of things to think about: Roscoe smoke fluid appears to be a >solution of 20% polyethylene glycol and 0-5% polypropylene >glycol in water. The PPG adds greatly to the decay time for >the smoke. Also, if J&R Music Sales sells a machine for >$129.95, "under $100 - if you're handy" might be too close >for consideration for a lot of people. > >Dave >dbell at cup.portal.com > Hi,Dave You're absolutely right, I've always been one of those people that selectively likes to do things himself. The actual cost will most likely be under $75.00, cheaper if people like to scrounge. I could use a couple of fog generators in my outdoor display (wind) which helps bring the cost down. The real purpose I guess is that I like screwing around with this kind of stuff. Fortunately I have the education and ability to keep all of my fingers and both eyes. Please don't mistake that for ego...I'm real idiot everywhere else. - - Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 08:30:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: Smoke and fog generators On Thu, 1 Jun 1995, D.D. wrote: Hi Denny! > How to give your spouse's divorce lawyer even more ammunition Well I guess we could start posting anonymously... Hello.. My name is John... I haven't, thought about Halloween in... 1 week... (Crowd gasps) ;-) > I do mechanical engineering and product development for a living (own > business) so this is very similar to what I do every day. If there is > interest in the group (Don?) I'll post instructions to the main list in > a few weeks when my testing is done or send me your E-mail address and > I'll get the info. to you if the group does not want a lengthy post. > The machine w/pump should cost under $100.00 to build if your handy > with hardware store type projects. The fog juice is non-flammable and > relatively non-toxic (glycerin/water based). If ya burn down the house, > yer on yer own! Well.. Be careful. Anytime you are working with 200 degree hot liquids, be careful. I, for one, would love to hear of your progress. Let us know how it works out! don > Denny (startin' early for a change this year) Tell me about it. The HomeBase store (a home improvement store) went out of business this week and I picked up 6 - 4 ft 40 watt blacklight tubes ($8 a piece!) Normally, there are around $30. Keep your eyes out for the great bargin everyone! - - From: "Robert Ertel (robert)" Subject: RE: Smoke and fog generators Date: Thu, 01 Jun 95 08:59:00 PDT Thanks for all the contributions on this list lately, maybe it will get me started early enough this year! We have set up haunted houses for the last 5 years or so, usually a maze set up in the garage. Last year I designed it with 2x4's mounted from ceiling to floor as the supports, and using those big blue tarps as the actual walls. This worked great, because it was easily packed up, and useful for the rest of the year. I also use the strobe light with the light organ, but if you don't have a strobe, a flood light works almost as well. Remember to use a blacklight! A few years ago I bought a $20 4' black-light tube from spencers gifts, works great with the glow in the dark items, and luminescent paint. Our haunted houses goals are to scare the wits out of the adults that are pushing or pulling their kids through... also the junior high kids are good targets. We usually go with the technique of putting lots of dummys around the maze, along with some real gouhls. About the time they have figured out that you are fake, you can jump at them rattling a can with some nuts and bolts in it. (we used to lose so many walls that way!) Last year we even tried the fog, bought a bottle of fog juice, and used a crock pot without the liner and a spray bottle to make the smoke... pretty uneffective, so I am looking forward to other plans for fog and smoke machines! - - Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 22:44:46 MDT From: Reason is the torture of insanity Subject: Smokers? We were trying to make some good glycerine based smoke in our kitchen yesterday and it got a little out of hand...anyway I was wondering if anyone out there would be kind enough to share ratios/temperatures/best ways to make a LOT of smoke in your kitchen? The ratios and temp are most important to us I think...thanx in advance..Mike Baker - - Subject: Re: Sources Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:43:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > > Hi All, > Here's another source for Halloween and Horror props , > effects and costumes available on the www. > I have no experience ordering from them and some of the prices > seem high so your on your own. They do have some neat stuff > though to stimulate thinking like the "Ground Hog" fog machine that > looks (from a picture) like it holds two one gallon bottles of fog > juice to produce alot of ground fog. Hmmmm, maybe a couple > of 1000 watt cartridge heaters and.... > > Tombstone Productions home page: > > The Ground Hog never became available, because it uses a carcinogenic chemical to keep the fog low. (Guess the Taiwanese manufacturer either doesn't know or doesn't care.) Regardless, this model isn't being sold in the states. I first found this web page by using the netscape search feature for the words "special effects". Everything that came up, other than the above, was movie, video effects, stuff like that. - - Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 18:40:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: Speaking of Disney fog... Hi! I am trying to get more info but in simple terms, the MeeFoggers run on 140 PSI Water Pressure *only* and has to be *HEAVILY* Filtered. More in to come.... - - Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:47:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: Smokers? On Fri, 23 Jun 1995, Reason is the torture of insanity wrote: > We were trying to make some good glycerine based smoke in our kitchen > yesterday and it got a little out of hand...anyway I was wondering if anyone > out there would be kind enough to share ratios/temperatures/best ways to make a > LOT of smoke in your kitchen? The ratios and temp are most important to us I > think...thanx in advance..Mike Baker Hi Reason! :-) Be really careful! Overheating glycerines (+220) can generate toxic flumes. There has been alot of discussion regarding this... And we can bring it up again. First, take a look at the halloween-l archives in my ftp site. ftp.netcom.com /pub/be/bertino/halloween/smoke. - - From: Zenin Newsgroups: alt.stagecraft Subject: Re: need a recipe for fog machine Date: 20 Jun 1995 02:25:14 GMT Jason Lavoie wasted expensive electrons to say: : > you are noy concerned with damages and warranties, you can dilute Crisco : > oil until it is close to the density of your particular fluid. Be sure you : if it was that easy I would have thought more people would be making their : own.. It's not that easy at all. Fog juice is _glycol/water_ based, NOT oil based at all. Some older "crackers" were (are...) oil based, but not foggers. Think about it for a minute. -What happens when you try and mix oil and water? They don't. All you will end up with is a mess. : what's the likelihood of success with this mixture? and is the fog : that comes out relatively the same as with regular fluid? If you are lucky you will only have to run water through your machine to fix the damage. If you do get _any_ smoke out of the unit it will be from BURNING OIL. Fog machines DO NOT (or at least shouldn't) burn anything. Most likely you will end up coating the inside of your heat exchanger with burned oil and destory it completely. Karl Ruling did a fantastic article on glycol based fogers in the April 95 edtion of "Lighting Dimensions" (page 84). If you have any ideas about making your own fluids, or using some cheap-o brand, this article will probably change your mind quickly. -Byron Brummer (who has made a number of (safe) foggers and knows better then to try and make his own juice.) - - Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:54:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: Smokers? On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Nathan Kahn wrote: >>> We were trying to make some good glycerine based smoke in our kitchen >>> yesterday and it got a little out of hand...anyway I was wondering if anyone >>> out there would be kind enough to share ratios/temperatures/best ways to >>> make a LOT of smoke in your kitchen? The ratios and temp are most >>> important to us I think...thanx in advance..Mike Baker > >> Be really careful! Overheating glycerines (+220) can generate toxic flumes. > > That's true. Formaldehyde for one. But I think the temperature required is a > little higher than 220. Or did you mean Celsius? No. I know that foggers run in the 180 to 220 range. So I said 220+. I was mistaken, I understand it is closer to 300 degrees. I was playing it safe. :-) - - Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 10:55:30 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: Smokers? You wrote: > >We were trying to make some good glycerine based smoke in our kitchen >yesterday and it got a little out of hand...anyway I was wondering if anyone >out there would be kind enough to share ratios/temperatures/best ways to make a >LOT of smoke in your kitchen? The ratios and temp are most important to us I >think...thanx in advance..Mike Baker Glycerin/Glycerol is one of the safer glycols to use but it does need a little higher temp. (around 250C.) to produce fog than commercial juices. The boiling point of glycerin is higher than propylene and ethylene glycols. The primary products of heat decomposition are carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. In an open ended monotube flash steam generator, which is what most foggers are, there is little pressure build up so the temp. of the steam/fog won't get near decomp. temps. as long as the glycerin is mixed with water and the flash chamber is fairly short. Don Bertino's Halloween archive may have a copy of a very simple fogger I posted a couple of weeks ago. Whether your on a movie set or in your kitchen making fog, few people have the equipment or ability to measure total particle or vapor exposure times and levels so try to limit how much you breathe of either commercial or homemade fog juice. - - Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 10:21:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: Smokers? On Thu, 29 Jun 1995, Nathan Kahn wrote: I have posted incorrect info on the temp of foggers.... Foggers run around 500 degrees and start putting out dangerous flumes around 700 degrees. Sorry about the confusion but thank you all for setting the recored straight! - - Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:57:06 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Water based fog juice & overheating Boiling points of common smoke formula chemicals: Polyethylene Glycol - 198C. Polypropylene Glycol- 187.3C. Glycerin- 290C. Water- 100C. I've read quite a bit lately about the decomposition byproducts produced when the above chemicals mixed with water are overheated in a fog machine. If you take a 500 degree frying pan and put water in it, the water will boil at 100C. or 212F. (at sea level, atmospheric pressure blah, blah) but the water, now steam, will not get any hotter unless put under pressure. The same holds true for Glycol and water based fog formulas where little or no pressure can be produced by the fog machine's nozzle. The listed boiling points are well below the heat decomposition temperatures for the above chemicals. A 30% Glycol solution in distilled water will boil roughly at around 180C. (depending on the Glycols used) despite the temperature of the heating unit. With a restrictive nozzle you can push that temp. up 10 or 20 degrees, but as long as the fogger is not building pressure, 180C. is all you're going to see. I've run a 750 watt heating unit with a vaporizing coil around it, if water is run through the coil, the coil reads 105C. With commercial fog juice the temp. is 210C. With homemade glycerin and poly-glycol solutions the temp. runs 200 to 300C. depending on the percentage of glycol to water (up to 40% in the tests). Note: The coil being copper does read a little higher (about 10 to 20 degrees C.) than the vapor released. These temperatures hold constant regardless if the heater is set at 300C. or 500C. The solution boils and is released into the atmosphere, period. Since there is no pressure build up or time in the coil to distill or crack out the water the boiling point of the solution sets the temperature of the vapor. A thermostat on the heating element WILL provide some fire safety and prolong the life of the unit. So what does it all mean? The folks that warn against over heating water based solutions and thereby producing all kinds of byproducts the Material Safety Data Sheets and chemistry text books don't list or chemical names never heard before, may be a bit off base. Are the solutions safe? Uhh...you won't ever hear me say yes. More important, with some of the solutions you'll be breathing what is basically vaporized old fashion anti- freeze (yup) so be very careful, limit exposure and use good judgment even with commercially made machines and solutions despite what the manufacturer says. Always keep solutions away from children and pets because of the potential of severe liver and kidney damage if ingested. - - Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 06:58:32 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: RE: Water based fog juice/overheating A question came up about the seemingly high temperatures (up to 300C) I measured on the vaporizing coil. I've been using a nozzle with a .0225" orifice which does create a pressure build up in the coil and subsequently a higher boiling point for the up to 40% glycerin solution. Also, I've noticed that as the glycol percentage went up more heat was conducted by the copper tubing from the heater. The measured vapor temperatures were always quite less than the coil temps. The reason for not posting vapor temperatures is because of the small nozzle diameter and the surging in pressure created by the variation in feeding solution into the coil, the vapor temperatures surged and receded along with the pressure but again, they always stayed well below the coil temps. I suspect the copper coil because of its' mass did not fluctuate nearly as much as the vapor. There is an opportunity to burn the glycol if the fog solution is put into a cold coil. (The M.S.D.S. warns of CO and CO2 being released, I did not get an elevated CO reading in PPM on the CO meter while testing in my shop) When the coil starts to heat the water does distill off first leaving the glycol behind to overheat if the unit does not have temperature regulation. As soon as the solution feed is started, normal operation resumes. None of this assumes that any fog juice is totally safe and is only an attempt to focus safety concerns in the right direction, i.e. the seldom discussed "exposure limits". - - Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 07:55:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Arizona Mist Hi! I have found another company that sells high pressure misters: Arizona Mist 1750 S. Los Feliz, Suite #102 Tempe, AZ 85281 (800) 966-MIST (6478) There system runs at 800psi. A kit with 25 misters, pump, filter, line run from $1,300 to $1,700. Ouch! - - Subject: Re: Smokers? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:09:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > >>> We were trying to make some good glycerine based smoke in our kitchen > >>> yesterday and it got a little out of hand...anyway I was wondering if anyone > >>> out there would be kind enough to share ratios/temperatures/best ways to > >>> make a LOT of smoke in your kitchen? The ratios and temp are most > >>> important to us I think...thanx in advance..Mike Baker > > > >> Be really careful! Overheating glycerines (+220) can generate toxic flumes. > > > > That's true. Formaldehyde for one. But I think the temperature required is a > > little higher than 220. Or did you mean Celsius? > > No. I know that foggers run in the 180 to 220 range. So I said 220+. I > was mistaken, I understand it is closer to 300 degrees. I was playing it > safe. :-) > Well, I didn't want to correct you in public twice in one day :-) but foggers actually run a little over 500F, and toxic byproducts generally don't occur until over 700F. Or are there some other low-temp foggers that I don't know about? - - Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 06:11:17 EDT From: lewisw at oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bill Lewis) . Dry ice is fairly simple to use for fog though not cheap, around .$1.20 a pound here. Use a wire basket to lower chunks into a large .amount of hot water, the hotter you can keep the water, the better your .fog will be. If you can get your hands on any kind of heater to keep .the temp. up around 170 to 200F. (dangerous for burns) life will be a .little easier than carrying pots of water around. For really small jobs .a hot plate and a 3 gallon metal bucket will do. . From that point you can let the fog flow naturally or use a small .blower attached to a cover for the water tank and large or small .shop-vac hose to pump the fog around. . To store the dry ice use a beer cooler with extra sheets of .Styrofoam insulation from a builders supply lining the inside. You .can also use a smaller cooler in your freezer to slow down the loss. .Never keep it in any kind of container that is not vented or open to .the air. A closed vessel can explode from the inevitable pressure .build up. .Denny I thought I might add a bit more to this. You need to keep the water hot, because if you don't the dry ice will freeze the water around it creating a shell that seals off the dry ice from the water supply, and killing your fog. I learned about this back in college when we had a theme party and the people in charge of the fog put the dry ice in a _cooler_ with water. It froze it up pretty quick that way. We ultimately started using it to put in everybody's drinks instead. That went over better. - - From: "Cassidy, Susan" Subject: fog-emitting pumpkin idea Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 14:28:00 PDT I saw a cute pumpkin idea today in the October issue of "Crafts 'n Things". It looked like a little house (presumably haunted!) They took a pumpkin and cut a "door" with open "panes" and two windows, cut as to be slightly ajar (the "window" rectangles were cut out completely, panes were carved shallowly into the "windows", then the "windows" were replaced slightly ajar). The lid was also put back on the pumpkin so that "fog" could escape. Inside, they put a 1-pound can with hot water, and chunks of dry ice. The fog coming out looks neat in the picture. They used it as a centerpiece with miniature ghosts around the house. The fog creeps out of the door and windows and around the lid. I can imagine lots of similar concepts that could be effective. I wonder if you could use one of the tiny potpourri crock pots that are electric (to keep the water hot) and put it inside a sufficiently large pumpkin. The magazine has other Halloween designs, too. There is a really cute mummy made from wood, wrapped in cheesecloth, and a neat little haunted house made from notched craft sticks. - - From: Scott Axworthy Subject: Re: fog-emitting pumpkin idea Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Susan and everyone: > > I saw a cute pumpkin idea today in the October issue of "Crafts 'n Things". > It looked like a little house (presumably haunted!) They took a pumpkin > and cut a "door" with open "panes" and two windows, cut as to be slightly > ajar (the "window" rectangles were cut out completely, panes were carved > shallowly into the "windows", then the "windows" were replaced slightly > ajar). The lid was also put back on the pumpkin so that "fog" could escape. > > Inside, they put a 1-pound can with hot water, and chunks of dry ice. The > fog coming out looks neat in the picture. They used it as a centerpiece > with miniature ghosts around the house. The fog creeps out of the door and > windows and around the lid. > > I can imagine lots of similar concepts that could be effective. I wonder if > you could use one of the tiny potpourri crock pots that are electric (to > keep the water hot) and put it inside a sufficiently large pumpkin. > > The magazine has other Halloween designs, too. There is a really cute mummy > made from wood, wrapped in cheesecloth, and a neat little haunted house made > from notched craft sticks. > I did this at my last party only on a larger scale. I installed the hoses from my fog distribution system (see my other posting) directly into the backs of two carved pumpkins. One was in the garage (where the band was) and the other was in the shop (where the bar and spooky stuff was.) I had high velocity fog shooting from all openings in the face. I used lights instead of candles so that they would not go out. They really looked great! Scott P.S. We only do our party every other year. With the change in the season and all this Halloween talk, I am going deep into my off-year depression. - - Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 20:54:56 -0700 From: dixie1 at ix.netcom.com (Elaine Shanahan ) Subject: Re: fog-emitting pumpkin idea Sounds like some neat ideas there. There is also another magazine called "Halloween" out - you can get it where you get Crafts&Things and other types of those magazines. It is totally Halloween and has some great ideas too. Elaine - - Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 06:02:19 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Heavy Glycol Fog Update As a quick follow-up... 1. A one or two foot hose leading from the fogger to the ice container would allow the fog to cool before it hits the ice (saving ice). The fog does cool rather rapidly after it leaves the nozzle and expands. 2. A beer cooler will allow longer contact time between the fog and ice. 3. Adding rock salt to the ice would bring the temp. down further. 4. This could mess up carpeting. 5. A quick dissipating fog that disappears before it warms and rises would be best. I think the fastest dissipating fog juices are mainly water and P.E. Glycol with little or no other glycols or chems. added. This means acute and chronic kidney and liver damage if ingested by humans or pets. BE CAREFUL... I have serious doubts about the results manufacturers of fog juices get with their stated ingredient lists. Some of the laws of the universe seem to have changed since I had Chemistry in college. 6. As always, avoid prolonged exposure to fog and vapor. - - Subject: Re: Heavy Glycol Fog Update Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 12:03:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > 1. A one or two foot hose leading from the fogger to the ice > container would allow the fog to cool before it hits the > ice (saving ice). The fog does cool rather rapidly after it leaves > the nozzle and expands. Ideally, the drier hose should be as far from the fogger output nozzle as possible, but not so far that the fog doesn't go into the hose. This will help to dry the fog, and you will not have as much residue in your hose as you would have if the hose was directly up against the fogger output nozzle. > 5. A quick dissipating fog that disappears before it warms and > rises would be best. I think the fastest dissipating fog juices are > mainly water and P.E. Glycol with little or no other glycols or > chems. added. This means acute and chronic kidney and liver > damage if ingested by humans or pets. BE CAREFUL... I have > serious doubts about the results manufacturers of fog juices get > with their stated ingredient lists. Some of the laws of the > universe seem to have changed since I had Chemistry in college. Yes, quick dissipating fluid works best, point being that by the time the fog warms up to the point where it would begin to rise, it has dissipated. This is done by using different glycols than conventional fluid, and certainly no glycerin. Our particular "LSX (Low Smoke) Fluid" has no water in it at all. Ours is designed to be used with our "LSX Low Smoke Converter (Mega Air Conditioner Thing)", and water vapor just uses up cooling capacity with no visible fog output. But with ice in a cooler, this wouldn't matter as much. I know for a fact that one competitor who makes a dry ice cooler type of contraption has water in his "Low Smoke Fluid". I do know one major manufacturer who uses Triethylene Glycol in their fog fluid, but it must not be very much, as NIOSH has tested it quite thoroughly, and so has a CIH commissioned by the company, and neither found any problem. There are really only two safety concerns with well-known reputable brand fog fluid: 1) Fog is hygroscopic, meaning it gives you a dry throat and eyes. This is just a temporary condition which rapidly disappears when you move to fresh air. 2) When fog fluid is aerosolized at higher temperatures than it was designed for, toxic byproducts are produced. With a proper fog machine / fog fluid system, the fog particles in the air should be identical to the particles in the bottle of fog fluid. For the record, Theatre Effects has no *-ethylene glycols in any of their fog fluids, and I drink it in front of people at exhibitions and trade shows all the time. (Which is not too say you should go gulping it down freely. Even water is toxic in large quantities.) Nathan nathan at theatrefx.com - - From: TheLazer at aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:51:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Heavy Glycol Fog Update Nathan wrote, >For the record, Theatre Effects has no *-ethylene glycols in >any of their fog >fluids, and I drink it in front of people at exhibitions and >trade shows all >the time. Maybe I ought to re-think that part about asking for a job if that is what I have to do... Na, I have done other stuff just as bad. {Try putting your finger in LN2, Liqued form... You can do it, and not freeze your hand off} - - From: moore at teleport.com Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:28:09 -7 Subject: Re: In a Fog ... If you mean by "ground layer" fog that hangs low to the ground, your best chance would be to get 5 pounds of dry ice and a crock pot. The lyte quest and ness fogger will create a foggieness\haziness every where. Good for disco lights. It will have some scent. I think from your description, you might want to look into the bulk dry ice method... - - Subject: Re: In a Fog ... Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 14:09:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > > "unscented fog juice" for $28.95/gallon. > > Does this then imply that there is also "scented fog juice"? If so, one > wonders just what scent(s) is/are utilized....anything like aromatherapy > nebulizers? > Sure. The most common fragrances are apple, citrus, strawberry, pina colada, and vanilla. Last year we checked into the possibility of coming out with some really cool scented fog fluid. We wanted to get "burnt leaves" or "rotting flesh". Wouldn't that be cool? DEATH SCENT!!! The closest we could find that was readily available was a musty/musky thing we considered calling "musty cave". The problem with scenting fog fluid is that 1) the fragrances need to be water-soluble (most fragrances are oil), and 2) they need to be very, very concentrated. (We put 8 drops of fragrance in a gallon of fluid.) It is very important, for a variety of reasons, to keep contaminants out of fog fluid, and this includes even simple distilled water. So the stuff really needs to be just pure fragrance and nothing else. And since so little is used (fragrance manufacturers want you to buy 55 gallon drums), nobody is interested in making a "death" scent for us. So if any of you out there have friends in the aroma industry . . . - - Subject: Re: In a Fog ... Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:59:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > I got a copy of the J&R Music World Catalog ((800)221-8180 for those > of you joining in late.) They do indeed have an inexpensive ($129.95) fog > machine on page 47. The Lyte Quest FG-1000 is a 700 Watt machine that > delivers 3000 ft^3/minute and operates continuously for up to 2 minutes. It > uses "low heating temperatures for safety." I've got $20 that says that fogger won't go longer than a minute. Regarding the cubic ft output measurement, its important to understand that this is only good for comparing different machines within the *same* manufacturer's line. There is no industry standard for density of smoke with this "cubic foot output" figure, so my machine could either put out 1000 ft^3/minute of very thin smoke that you can barely see, or 50 ft^3/minute of incredibly thick smoke. > Other than having watched them being set up while doing theatrical > lighting, I have no real experience with fog machines. I do recall that the > fog had a mildly unpleasant smell. What I want is something that will give > me a nice ground layer in my backyard (maybe 1500 ft^2) during a party, > preferably without causing any of the guests to choke to death. They sell > "unscented fog juice" for $28.95/gallon. > These fog machines won't give you a ground layer -- the smoke goes everywhere. In order to get a ground layer, you have to either use dry ice instead of a liquid fog machine, or use some kind of a low smoke converter (these typically cool and humidify the fog output) that will cause the fog to lay low. > I'm wondering if anyone (or everyone) out there can tell me if this > machine is what I want or, if I should look for another solution. I was > originally considering some sort of a dry ice rig but, would just as soon > have a less labor-intensive solution. > Those 700W foggers are suitable only for casual indoor use. (Parties in garages, basements, etc.) They just don't hold up to haunted house use. They certainly won't make enough smoke to use outdoors. (You need an *extra* heavy-duty machine for outdoors, because the smoke keeps blowing away so you have to keep making it, whereas indoors a nice 10 second burst will last 2-3 minutes.) > J&R also sells an "NESS EZ-1000 Portable Fog/Smoke Generator" (p. > 48) for $299.95 (in the "steep" range.) It produces 2000 ft^3 of "white > smoke fog" per minute but, uses "water-based fog juice" and has a remote > control. > This is a nice machine, and a good value for the money. Perfect for indoor haunted houses. But for outdoor use??? It would depend on how much area you wanted to cover, and how often and/or how long. (Here is a good example of that cubic foot measurement problem. The EZ-1000 puts out twice as much smoke as the Lyte Quest, yet the cubic foot spec says the opposite.) FYI, nobody has made an oil-based fogger for years. All foggers nowadays use "water-based fog juice". And all reputable fog manufacturers use "low heating temperatures for safety". - - Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:15:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: In a Fog ... On Wed, 16 Aug 1995, Nathan Kahn wrote: > The problem with scenting fog fluid is that 1) the fragrances need to be > water-soluble (most fragrances are oil), and 2) they need to be very, very > concentrated. (We put 8 drops of fragrance in a gallon of fluid.) It is very > important, for a variety of reasons, to keep contaminants out of fog fluid, > and this includes even simple distilled water. So the stuff really needs to > be just pure fragrance and nothing else. And since so little is used > (fragrance manufacturers want you to buy 55 gallon drums), nobody is > interested in making a "death" scent for us. So if any of you out there have > friends in the aroma industry . . . You should give pure aromatherapy oils a try...authentic aromatherapy oils aren't particularly oily (since they're the pure distillation of the plant essence), and they are very concentrated, so only a few drops would be necessary. An alternative would be to invest in an actual nebulizer designed for aromatherapy, but decent ones that handle a large room run $100 to $200. As for scents appropriate for a Halloween gathering, I'd suggest Clary Sage....has a sort of musty, earthy, "old wet leaves" scent, a fun side effect is that after inhaling it for awhile, one usually experiences a mild euphoric feeling, not unlike smoking a few joints... ...not that I have any firsthand experience.... ;-> - - Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 17:59 PDT From: bdosfx at wimsey.com (Brian Oberquell) Subject: Re: In a Fog ... >Does this then imply that there is also "scented fog juice"? If so, one >wonders just what scent(s) is/are utilized....anything like aromatherapy >nebulizers? Yes, Virginia, there _is_ scented fog juice -- while I refuse to use it myself (one person's feeble attempt to keep the air a little bit fresher), I have seen such scents as banana, pina colada, and strawberry listed...I don't know if there's a "potpourri" available but perhaps that's a marketing niche you could take advantage of? ;-) - - Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 07:37:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: In a Fog ... On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Brian Oberquell wrote: > >Does this then imply that there is also "scented fog juice"? If so, one > >wonders just what scent(s) is/are utilized....anything like aromatherapy > >nebulizers? > > Yes, Virginia, there _is_ scented fog juice -- while I refuse to use it > myself (one person's feeble attempt to keep the air a little bit fresher), > I have seen such scents as banana, pina colada, and strawberry listed...I > don't know if there's a "potpourri" available but perhaps that's a > marketing niche you could take advantage of? ;-) Thanx, but presuming that these scents are purely the product of some chemist's lab and not the natural product, and are being burnt and not nebulized....I would presume they smell pretty bad. Barring a nebulizer dispersing pure plant essence, I'd rather go with a high grade incense. BTW, one can make one's own incense by getting plain incense charcoal at new age stores, and adding a few drops of whatever scent (oil) one wishes ...just a suggestion for anyone wishing to acheive a certain smell and not able to find a commercial product available. This would work with the Clary Sage oil I mentioned in a previous post.... one could also try Ylang Ylang, which has a similar "emotional effect" as Clary Sage, but has a slightly more "perfumey" aura to it...actually an acquired taste, a scent I particularly don't care for, tho others swear by it. Donna in CT (no Virginia at all) ;-> - - From: "Dustin Moore" Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 17:58:06 -7 Subject: Re: In a Fog ... [15 year old technical expert mode on] > Other than having watched them being set up while doing theatrical > lighting, I have no real experience with fog machines. I do recall that the > fog had a mildly unpleasant smell. What I want is something that will give > me a nice ground layer in my backyard (maybe 1500 ft^2) during a party, > preferably without causing any of the guests to choke to death. They sell > "unscented fog juice" for $28.95/gallon. That Lyte ques thing scares me. It's not always the cheaperst is the best. Some times they sacrifice soem important piece thats is normally related to saftey or quality of fog allong those lines.... > J&R also sells an "NESS EZ-1000 Portable Fog/Smoke Generator" (p. > 48) for $299.95 (in the "steep" range.) It produces 2000 ft^3 of "white > smoke fog" per minute but, uses "water-based fog juice" and has a remote > control. So far every function I have been involved in uses the ez-1000 or it's American Dj equivelent. I have yet to see a laser show that wasn't done with one. Just the fact that I see them all the time and that the local rental house has them to rent out leads me to believe that they are at least a good average fog machine. I don't normally have any problems with anyone complaining about the fog's scent UNLESS you use a scented fog mix. If you rent, ask for a unscented fog mix, It's not quite totally unscented, but it sure beats Lemon lime partyhawwian punch scented mix....... - - From: dbell at cup.portal.com Subject: In a fog! Date: Mon, 25 Sep 95 10:07:58 PDT Hi, group! Denny - thanks for the input on the Cheap Chiller (tm). Looks like a success! My own experiments over the weekend, with LN2 and hot water, were also pretty successful. I have an old steel spherical dewar, that holds maybe 5 gallons of LN2. I put in a two-hole stopper, with a gas vent I could close down or blow into for pressure, and a dip line to feed liquid out. Both lines are vinyl tubing, about 3/8" ID; the liquid feed line goes from the bottom of the dewar to about 4 feet out. And yes, they both get very stiff when operating! I ran the system the first evening with no insulation on the liquid line; it worked better than I expected for a first attempt, producing a large amount of very heavy, dense, white vapor. The fog would flow over the side of the large bowl of hot (130F?) tap water, and build up to maybe a six-inch layer on the porch, then spread and dissipate over a six to eight foot radius. With the front door open, the slight breeze drove the fog into the living room, as a maybe eight-foot stream. The water wouldn't stay hot for more than five minutes, at a fair LN2 flow rate, but than again, I wasn't attempting to heat it continuously. Even with cool (70F?) water, there was a good fog, but not nearly as opaque as with hot water. Considering that the water would drop from 130 to 70 degrres in maybe 5 minutes of heavy use, my first hope of using a crockpot as a heater/resevoir was pretty well shot down. I *know* a crockpot can't heat a fill of water that much in 5 minutes... Now looking for an immersible heater of maybe 1500 Watts. On another hardware front, does anyone have a lead on a solenoid-operated liquid CO2 valve? It should be able to operate with at least 600 psi of line pressure, and safely withstand at least 2500psi, should the tank get hot and go to an all-gas state. Normally, it would be gas-over-liquid, and be around 515 psi at 70F... A DC valve, maybe 24V, and at least a 3/16" to 3/8" orifice is the target... Oh yeah: cheap, and quickly available, of course. Say, up to $30 and 1 week?? - - Date: Tue, 26 Sep 95 06:33:49 EDT From: lewisw at oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bill Lewis) Subject: Re: In a fog! >heat a fill of water that much in 5 minutes... Now looking >for an immersible heater of maybe 1500 Watts. Try looking in a horse/farm supply store. I know that you can get a coil bucket heater that might do the trick. And no, I'm not referring to the small coffee cup size, they make a big one to heat water in a 3-5 gallon bucket. I don't know the wattage rating, but I'd say that 1500 would be about right. - - Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 06:00:29 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: In a fog! Dave Wrote: edited for brevity > My own experiments over the weekend, >with LN2 and hot water, were also pretty successful. I >have an old steel spherical dewar, that holds maybe 5 gallons >of LN2. I put in a two-hole stopper, with a gas vent I >could close down or blow into for pressure, and a dip line >to feed liquid out. I'm jealous, every overgrown child's dream (safety issues aside, blah,blah,blah). A vat of liquid nitrogen.... Thanks for the update. > Now looking for an immersible heater of maybe 1500 Watts. You already may be aware of them but floating water trough or stock tank heaters for farms run up to 1500 watts. They usually have a built in thermostat (need to bypass) that shuts them off if the air temp is over 40 F. I've seen costs from $30.00 to $50.00. I use one (1000w) in my fish pond during the winter to keep a hole melted in the ice.= BIG ELECTRIC BILL > On another hardware front, does anyone have a lead on >a solenoid-operated liquid CO2 valve? ......... I'll be happy to check some of my industrial sources and E-Mail you if I find anything. - - From: alt at ixstar.att.com Date: Wed, 27 Sep 95 08:03:21 CDT Subject: Re: In a fog! > > Now looking for an immersible heater of maybe 1500 Watts. > > You already may be aware of them but floating water trough or > stock tank heaters for farms run up to 1500 watts. They usually > have a built in thermostat (need to bypass) that shuts them off if > the air temp is over 40 F. > I've seen costs from $30.00 to $50.00. I use one (1000w) in my > fish pond during the winter to keep a hole melted in the ice.= BIG > ELECTRIC BILL > > > On another hardware front, does anyone have a lead on > >a solenoid-operated liquid CO2 valve? ......... American Science and Surplus has several heaters. One, was very interesting. It is a roughly 8"x5"x2 1/2" container with a (I think) 1500 watt heater. Liquid enters and exits through 1/8" or 1/4" tubes soldered to the top and bottom. This is for flow through heating. They also have a rod heater, a "W" shaped heater, and a "cup" heater; like from the bottom of a coffee pot. Check out their current catalog. - - From: dbell at cup.portal.com Subject: In a Fog, Again Date: Tue, 19 Sep 95 09:02:27 PDT Hi, folks! I'm back to trying to build a (dense, cool, low-level) fog generator. I've used dry ice and both hot and cool water, in the past. It works, but at considerable cost in time to keep it working. We've discussed "pro" systems that use liquid Nitrogen (LN2) a little bit. Does anyone have any details? Like, just how much LN2 would I be consuming, as compared to dry ice? You see, I have this dewar on permanent loan from a friend, maybe 10 litres or so, and a ready (ahem, free...) supply of LN2 when I want it. No, I can't really roll a 110 litre dewar out the gate - I'll have to be content with the little one. I figured a two-hole stopper with a dip tube in one hole and a bleed valve on the other. Insulate the liquid feed line WELL, and run it through or over a heated water pot. Let natural boil-off build up pressure in the dewar to force the LN2 out the dip tube, etc.... Questions are, how long would it run, and how much fog can I get? Any thoughts on form of the orifice? Open tube, fan shaped, pinholes, etc.... Obviously, I'll try it out in a day or two, but thought I would troll for some input in the meantime! - - Subject: Re: In a Fog, Again Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:18:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > > Hi, folks! > > I'm back to trying to build a (dense, cool, low-level) > fog generator. I've used dry ice and both hot and cool > water, in the past. It works, but at considerable cost > in time to keep it working. Have you even though about getting some old commercial air conditioners, and trying to build something out of that, similar to the LeMaitre and JEM machines? > We've discussed "pro" systems > that use liquid Nitrogen (LN2) a little bit. Does anyone > have any details? Like, just how much LN2 would I be > consuming, as compared to dry ice? > The little I know about LN2 foggers is: 1) The commercial models have extremely powerful water heaters (we're talking 50A 3 phase), because the liquid nitrogen cools the water so rapidly. The shorter the duty cycle, the less heat is required, so could get by with smaller heating elements I guess. 2) The process must be extremely corrosive, because all of the commercial manufacturers are going to stainless steel tanks. - - From: mantia at iglou.com (Kelly Luljak) Subject: children's tree.. another approach Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:20:22 -0400 (EDT) For the past few years, an organization I belong to has been buying Christmas presents for needy children in a different kind of way. My father and I came up with this idea several years ago and it works wonderfully. I thought if any of you folks belong to an organization with enough people, you might be interested... First, we set a dollar amount for each child, $30 or $40, and we got names and addresses of the children from local churches/charities/etc. Several months in advance we post a list of the children by first name and age only, then take donations. People can sponser a particular child, or just donate in general. Then closer to Christmas, a group of volunteers get together and go shopping with the donated money. A local department store allows us to come in before regular business hours and they add everything up to one total (and give us a good discount too) so the treasurer doesn't have to worry with paying seperately. The list we get from the churches also has preferences and special things the children want, and we try to go by that. We keep each child's presents in a store bag, stapled shut, with an index card with their name attached. After all the presents are bought, a different group of volunteers get together to have a wrapping party. Then very soon before Christmas, another group delivers the presents. This is usually just the officers as we don't want to spread the addresses and such around too much. This works WONDERFULLY, it's nice because even those of us who can't afford to spend a lot of money still get to help out, and those with money and little time can too. Kelly... -- ~M~A~N~T~I~A~~ " "Come to the edge," he said. Kelly Rhea Luljak They said, "We are afraid." UNcivil engineer (in training) "Come to the edge," he said. mantia at iglou.com They came, he pushed them, and they flew. " - - Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 05:24:03 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: More Heavy Fog My Fellow Fog People, After letting one of the dogs out at 2:30 this morning (thanks Hoover) and laying there not able to fall asleep again. I started to run the past week through my head, important stuff first and then the really important stuff like Dave's experiments with liquid nitrogen and Nathan's heavy fog suggestions. Since I have a couple of glycol based fog generators, one homemade, one commercial, I wondered how to make cool, heavy fog cheaply. My first thought was to use a small, portable, room dehumidifier (I have one I haven't used in years) and just blow fog across the cooling coils only. Then using regular ice came to mind. Why not use a cheap beer cooler filled with a couple bags of ice (drink the beer first) and blow the glycol based fog through that. Possibly the ice could be in a tray above the path of the fog if needed. A quick dissipating fog might be best since the fog will rise as it warms. Of course any of this assumes little or no air movement. As a quick test I cut the bottom off a 2 liter plastic Coke bottle and drill some holes in the bottom part I just cut off, filled the bottle with ice, telescoped the bottom back onto the ice filled bottle and pump some fog into the neck end. It works amazingly well! While all my fog will be outdoors this year (praying for little wind), I thought others would like to know about this. Thanks Nathan and Dave for stimulating my brain cells. - - From: Scott Axworthy Subject: Re: More Heavy Fog Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Jay and everyone: > > Just a question, for those who own {not made but bought} a fogger, what kind > is and how do you like it. > > Jay > My purchased fog machine is the American DJ F-300. I bought it last year from one of the mail order joints. I looked for my reciept but couldn't find it. (>$200) The fog output is pretty good but the one problem I have with the lower end machines is heating cycle. Typically these machines go through a heat up cycle and then a run cycle. You cannot fire the fog machine while it is in the heat cycle. Once it is up to temperature then you can run the fog unitl it is time for another heat cycle. This isn't a big deal if you just need occasional fog blasts but if you want some fog and you want it now - it may not be ready. On a releated topic, a fog machine is not all you need for a good fog setup. You also need a fog distribution system. A fog distribution system gets your fog to the areas that need fogging. Professional distribution systems consist of a distribution box, a squirrel cage fan, and distribution hoses. The distribution box is typically about the size of a large ice cooler. (Hmmmm!) The fan is installed *inside* the box. The output of the fan is to a 4" round flange that exits outside the box. The fan draws air from inside the box. Four inch flexible dryer tubing or ADS drain pipe then hooks to the flange and is directed to the area that you want the fog. On the other side of the box you need another 4"ish round hole. The output of your fog machine is directed into this hole. The fan creates a negative pressure in the box and sucks in fog and air. It is then delivered to the areas that you need it. The hoses can be Y'd so that the fog can go to different areas. Not only is it convenient, but it seems to expand the volume of fog by introducing extra air. Now back to the ice cooler box. This is an excellent point to introduce dry ice to cool down the fog and air. The fog coming out the tubes will then drop down and be a ground hugging type of fog instead of a smokey mist. I whipped out a distribution system in about 5 minutes. I went up into the attic and got out my dry ice fog machine (that I built from a 30 gallon drum). This already had a squirrel-cage fan on top and hose distribution. I fire my F300 directly into the input of the squirrel cage fan and instant distribution system. I haven't tried cooling mine yet but I know that this is the method used by the professional systems. - - Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 16:14:47 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: More Heavy Fog (answer to Nathan) You wrote: >Thanks for the informative review. Certainly sounds like you got your >money's worth. >I'm curious about one thing. Isn't this the fogger that said it would run continuous for 2 minutes? And if so, does it? >Nathan >nathan at theatrefx.com Hi Nathan, Well you got me curious. Here's the poop... Ambient temperature- 77 F. Relative Humidity- 25% (I cleaned the plaster off that % key) Voltage at wall socket- 123 vac (not measured at heater) Current draw (heater only)- 5.95 amps Juice used- Lyte Quest (unknown formula) Juice flow rate- 12cc minute (+ or - 2cc) Initial heat-up time from "cold"- 5 minutes Average run time- 2 min. 32 sec. (average of 5 tests) Reheat Time Average- 1min. 8 sec. Heater temp. max- 240 C. / min. not measured I think you'll agree this all means little or nothing. Without knowing the exact fluid formula (at the time it's used) which would give us a hint of actual vaporization temperature and heat conductivity, alloy and porting used in the heater block and a scazillion other things the above information has no basis for comparison to anything. As you've mentioned in a previous post there is no standard in the industry for "cubic feet of fog" or the "wetness" or "dryness" of fog and for practical reasons there probably never will be. The best engineering summation I could give is- It puts out a bunch (I would not suggest oodles and oodles) of fog and may be fine for home use. Watts is watts.... We'll see, I'm as curious as you when it comes to life expectancy of the unit. The quality of the heating unit and pump motor are at question. Money's worth??? - - From: Scott Axworthy Subject: Re: More Heavy Fog (answer to Nathan) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 15:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Denny, Nathan, an everyone: I found this interesting so I did a few tests on my F-300. > > You wrote: > >Thanks for the informative review. Certainly sounds like you got your > >money's worth. > >I'm curious about one thing. Isn't this the fogger that said it would > run continuous for 2 minutes? And if so, does it? > >Nathan > >nathan at theatrefx.com > > Hi Nathan, > Well you got me curious. > Here's the poop... > > Ambient temperature- 77 F. > Relative Humidity- 25% (I cleaned the plaster off that % key) > Voltage at wall socket- 123 vac (not measured at heater) > Current draw (heater only)- 5.95 amps > Juice used- Lyte Quest (unknown formula) > Juice flow rate- 12cc minute (+ or - 2cc) > Initial heat-up time from "cold"- 5 minutes > Average run time- 2 min. 32 sec. (average of 5 tests) > Reheat Time Average- 1min. 8 sec. > Heater temp. max- 240 C. / min. not measured > I don't have qute as much info as Denny, but here is what I have: Ambient Temp: 65 F. Machine rated at 10A/115VAC Juice used: American DJ standard Fog Juice (I think, it came with machine) Flow rate: 8.5 ml/minute Initial heatup time from cold: 4:45 Average run time: 24 Seconds Reheat time: 60 Seconds I find it interesting that mine has such a shorter run time than the F150. Mine does kick out quite a bit of fog in that 24 seconds. - - Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 07:14:22 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: More Heavy Fog (kinda long) Jay wrote: >Just a question, for those who own {not made but bought} a fogger, >what kind is and how do you like it. Hi Jay, Well, I'm rather embarrassed to say I bought one of the $130.00 fog units from J&R Music. These took a beating on this list a few weeks ago, so I just kept my mouth shut. While I'll weasel out of recommending any product on the net I'll try to give it a fair assessment- I've built a couple of foggers now (one was given away) that were designed for continuous running and have thermostats, thermofuses and overload protection. I decided to buy a cheap one to mount in my gargoyle (replacing an ultrasonic humidifier) to save time. I bought it many months ago with the intention of sending it back if I didn't like it, or the quality and or safety were suspect. Despite the printed warnings of "NO USER SERVICEABLE PARTS INSIDE, I took it apart as soon as I received it (I don't think they meant me, did they?) and found the same basic components as the slightly more expensive foggers I've dissected. It does lack some of the control features of the more expensive ones and only has the 20 ft. remote for on and off control of the pump. The 700 watt heater probably puts out enough smoke for home or small club use but watts is watts and it won't put out as much as a 1500 watt unit. 1500 watts would be about the max you would want to plug into a home 110v. outlet. From a product engineering standpoint (my business) I think they sell a nice product for $130.00 and am actually impressed by the quality (again, for 130 bucks). Safety wise it has a thermostat and a thermal fuse if I remember right, which is all any of the ones I had opened up had. I was not able to get to the cartridge heater to check the manufacturer and quality. It is definitely not designed for outdoor use. The case is a fairly substantial aluminum extrusion painted black and is similar to ones sold under other names. It holds a quart of juice which isn't very much, a "hamster bottle" type reservoir could probably be rigged up for more time between fill ups. For 51 weeks of the year this fogger will sit in my attic, I don't depend on a fogger for my livelihood. If your looking for heavier use of a unit than the occasional hobbyist, I would definitely seek the opinion of folks like Nathan Kahn at Theatre FX on this list. - - Subject: Re: More Heavy Fog (kinda long) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:15:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > Hi Jay, Well, I'm rather embarrassed to say I bought one of the $130.00 > fog units from J&R Music. These took a beating on this list a > few weeks ago, so I just kept my mouth shut. While I'll weasel > out of recommending any product on the net I'll try to give it a > fair assessment- Thanks for the informative review. Certainly sounds like you got your money's worth. I'm curious about one thing. Isn't this the fogger that said it would run continuous for 2 minutes? And if so, does it? - - From: TheLazer at aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 12:21:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Re[2]: More Heavy Fog (kinda long) Someone asked {I am not bothering to quote today, just liek I never do!} about the ROSCO Foggers, Haveing used the 1500, I can say that it is a NICE fogger, good output and alot of timeing options, Worth the money.. I used another kind awhile back. I think it was the Marten 2000 or somthing like that. I know that it was a BIG SIZED system. At first I thought it was some kind of 80 pound thing from its size but I found that it was lightweight, and BOY did it kick some fog. Diffently good for outdoors. Then there is the one I own. Amercan DJ F-150. Well, not too much power, great for indoor, and outdoor, {but it blows away rather quick with a breeze} However I must say that it does create a good effect... Still not enough fog.. NEVER ENOUGH FOG MUST HAVE MORE<<< MORE>>>> MORE<<<>>>>> {Sorry!} Oh well, over to UniStage to rent my Rosco 1500 then over to Grand Rental station to get there big fan, that way I can put the two foggers side by side and fog up the whole area! - - Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 07:23:57 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: RE:Crock Pots and Dry Ice I would suspect that a Crock Pot would make a great hot water source for dry ice fog, the temperature is about perfect. The only draw back might be the recovery time if too much dry ice is put in and the water cools off. Some of the Crock Pots heat up pretty fast, others are slow. I volunteer to work in the kitchen at some of my daughter's cheerleading fund raisers and we use Crock Pots for cooking hot dogs etc., some brands of the pots have pretty high wattages and recover heat quickly others take forever. - - From: "D. Joseph Creighton" Subject: Dry Ice Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 10:37:43 -0500 (CDT) Simply put, I'd like some details on dry ice. Specifically: - methods of storage to extend its life expectancy (we tend to have long wait times between Trick-or-Treaters) - how to get it to create the longest lasting (not necessarily the thickest) fog; it's got to hang about and linger at their feet for a decent while after removing the ice/water bucket - does the addition of soap produce merely large quantities of foamy bubbles, or - depending on the concentration - can it make the fog "appear" to last a bit longer I've yet to purchase any dry ice and I don't want to waste money on doing various experiments if this has all been done before ("if"? Heh, right... ) - - Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:18:49 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: Dry Ice Dry ice is fairly simple to use for fog though not cheap, around $1.20 a pound here. Use a wire basket to lower chunks into a large amount of hot water, the hotter you can keep the water, the better your fog will be. If you can get your hands on any kind of heater to keep the temp. up around 170 to 200F. (dangerous for burns) life will be a little easier than carrying pots of water around. For really small jobs a hot plate and a 3 gallon metal bucket will do. From that point you can let the fog flow naturally or use a small blower attached to a cover for the water tank and large or small shop-vac hose to pump the fog around. To store the dry ice use a beer cooler with extra sheets of Styrofoam insulation from a builders supply lining the inside. You can also use a smaller cooler in your freezer to slow down the loss. Never keep it in any kind of container that is not vented or open to the air. A closed vessel can explode from the inevitable pressure build up. - - Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 08:08:43 CDT From: jeffh at oakhill-csic.sps.mot.com (Jeff Hunsinger) Subject: Re: Dry Ice > Never keep it in any kind of container that is not vented or open to > the air. A closed vessel can explode from the inevitable pressure > build up. I used to exploit this for flameless explosions. While this isn't something you want to do close to any people, it's fun and very loud: Fill an empty 2 liter plastic soda bottle with enough dry ice chuncks to cover the bottom of the container. Fill the bottle with enough water to cover the ice. Quickly screw on the cap and move out of the area. You'll hear some crinking as you watch the bottle expand. In about 30 seconds it'll explode. Needless to say, this should be done outside a safe distance from any people. - - Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 19:09:44 -0700 From: fishcat at hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: dry ice >I learned about this back in college when we had a theme party and the >people in charge of the fog put the dry ice in a _cooler_ with water. It >froze it up pretty quick that way. We ultimately started using it to put in >everybody's drinks instead. That went over better. >Bill Okay, this may be a stupid question, but I've always wondered about putting dry ice in drinks or a punch bowl. Is this dangerous? What happens when it melts? If it's safe, would the effect be interesting? If you have to use hot water to make dry ice fog up, then I guess you would have to put it in hot drinks? Any suggestions for getting a foggy witch's brew look for the punch bowl, while remaining safe and non-toxic? Thanks! I'm glad to have found this mailing list -- Halloween is my absolute favourite holiday (I *always* take the day off from work!) & I have been throwing increasingly complicated Halloween parties for the past ten years, so I'll be glad for your suggestions (jeez, it's already July?!? Better finish up my costume so I can start on the invitation and props!). - - From: dbell at cup.portal.com Subject: Re: dry ice Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 22:34:38 PDT Trystan Bass posted: >Okay, this may be a stupid question, but I've always wondered about putting >dry ice in drinks or a punch bowl. Is this dangerous? What happens when >it melts? If it's safe, would the effect be interesting? If you have to >use hot water to make dry ice fog up, then I guess you would have to put it >in hot drinks? Any suggestions for getting a foggy witch's brew look for >the punch bowl, while remaining safe and non-toxic? Hi, and welcome to the list! The only source of danger with dry ice in drinks is the someone might swallow any small bits in a glass. When I was a kid (what, I've grown up?!?), we used to collect a block o fdry ice from the local ice cream shop, and use it to make carbonated water and "smoking" drinks throughout the summer. And no, you definately do not need hot drinks for a good effect! 1) Place a largish block in the punch bowl. It will bubble and smoke for a half-hour to a couple of hours. 2) Place a peanut-sized chunk in a glass or mug of any drink. It will flow fog over the rim, fill the glass with bubbles, and both chill and slightly carbonate the drink. BE CAREFUL NOT TO SWALLOW THE CHUNK OF DRY ICE! Note that to start with, the dry ice is denser than water, so it sinks. When the chunk gets too small, it will be floated up by the shell of gas formang around it, and will then sit on top of the drink. 3) Put a large block in a large kettle of cool water. Periodically, break the shell of (water) ice that forms around it. As the dry ice sublimes, it will chill the water, and add quite a lot of carbonation. Remember, the solubility increases as temperature drops. Use the water to make punck, Kool-Aid, etc... - - From: "D. Joseph Creighton" Subject: Re: dry ice Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 08:07:54 -0500 (CDT) Bobby R. mailed me a couple of interesting approaches not yet mentioned. Since he needs a bit of proding now to post things ;-) I'll offer them up here on his behalf: } If you just want to have fun with dry ice... } } buy an old coffee percolator - one that makes about 50 cups... you can get } these pretty cheap - $10 or $20 ... then plug the sucker in and heat the } water to just below boiling temp and drop in golf ball size chunks - presto - } fog. The real secret is HEAT! In order for the dry ice not to become } cacooned in regular ice... you MUST heat the water... a coffee percolator } is nice because the heating element is already installed and safe. } } I've also heard of people using a styro-foam beer cooler... filling it up } with hot water, cutting two holes above the water level (one on each side } of the cooler), afixing a flexable hose to one hole, and a hair drying to } the other... drop in the dry ice, shut the lid, and turn on the hair dryer. } Now you have DIRECTIONAL fog! } } Hope some of these ideas were new. If you think they'd be of use to anyone } else you can post it to the halloween group - guess I'm a little gun shy! } } Over and out, } Bobby Thanks Bobby. The coffee maker is a great angle - I hadn't thought of it! Feel free to post future ideas next time. - - From: "Cassidy, Susan" Subject: dry ice, again Date: Mon, 17 Jul 95 11:35:00 PDT About the idea of using an old party percolator filled with water & chunks of dry ice to make fog - would a crock pot work? Low heat in a crock pot is about 200 degrees, if I remember right. It is designed to hold low heat like that for hours. Has anyone tried this? - - Subject: Re: dry ice, again Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 12:50:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > About the idea of using an old party percolator filled with water & chunks > of dry > ice to make fog - would a crock pot work? Low heat in a crock pot is about > 200 > degrees, if I remember right. It is designed to hold low heat like that for > hours. > Has anyone tried this? I know a magician who uses a crockpot, but he just does it for his entrance, not for extended periods of time. - - Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 11:44:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Bertino Subject: Re: Dry Ice/Who On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, D.D. wrote: Hi Denny! > O.k., Bobby made a mistake, so what? How about giving Bobby help > (which is why I thought we were here) and solid instructions and get > this stuff off the list. You are correct as usual... The only problem I had was he continued to send the commands to the list after I replied three times how to do it correctly.... > (I'm in a real horse s%#! mood today) :) :) BTW, I put cardboard wrapped Dry Ice in my freezer and the next day it was gone! Must have been the blowing cold air? I think the idea of a cooler inside a freezer is a must! - - Subject: Re: Dry Ice/Who Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 16:04:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > > BTW, I put cardboard wrapped Dry Ice in my freezer and the next day it > was gone! Must have been the blowing cold air? I think the idea of a > cooler inside a freezer is a must! > Moisture makes dry ice dissipate rapidly. So dry ice needs to be kept in a dry freezer, not a wet one (like the freezer portion of your refrigerator). If you have large stores of dry ice, you can often rent dry freezer storage at your local ice company. For short periods, dry ice wrapped in newspaper, placed in a cardboard box, which is then placed in a coleman-type cooler, works pretty well. - - Date: Fri, 14 Jul 95 07:11:06 EDT From: lewisw at oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bill Lewis) Subject: Re:DryICE >Okay, this may be a stupid question, but I've always wondered about putting >dry ice in drinks or a punch bowl. Is this dangerous? What happens when >it melts? If it's safe, would the effect be interesting? If you have to >use hot water to make dry ice fog up, then I guess you would have to put it >in hot drinks? Any suggestions for getting a foggy witch's brew look for >the punch bowl, while remaining safe and non-toxic? Take a room full of college students who have all had freshman chemistry, stick dry ice in their drinks, and you'd still be amazed at the number that would ask me if it was safe. I heard all kinds of things like "doesn't it turn the liquid into an acid etc...". It was truely a interesting experiment (I was the one making the drinks, and puttin' in the dry ice). As Dave pointed out, use a small amount, and don't drink it, the only thing that dry ice will do is carbonate your drink. To use dry Ice in a fog making apparatus, for a sustained fog, it is necessary to keep the water warm. Though you'll go through alot of CO2ICE doing it. Other fun things to do with dry ice is play air hockey. Take a small piece and put it on a laminated table top and it makes a neat little hockey puck. Actually what happens is that the puck will float on the CO2 gas cushion as it sublimates into nothing. It really glides. - - From: "Robert Ertel (robert)" Subject: Questions on building a fog machine Date: Mon, 09 Oct 95 08:53:00 PDT Technical dialogue of fog machine: I have read the descriptions of building your own fog machine that has been distributed over this list and after careful consideration I have decided to attempt building one of these myself. I need some details about the fog machines operation, and then have some ideas I haven't seen discussed yet on the list that I want to run by the experts out there. Questions: What temperature should the heating element run at? (watts doesn't tell me much about it) At what temperature does the fog juice vaporize (approximate), i.e. how much tube does it have to run through before it becomes smoke? Does the heating of the fog juice have to be gradual, or would a quick heating to vaporization temperature work as well? Should the fog juice vaporize before it leaves the coil, or will it dribble on the hot element and smoke at that time? Ideas: I took apart an old "Mr Coffee" automatic drip coffee maker and found a kinda horseshoe shaped heating element molded to about 6 inches of aluminum tube... a cross section of the unit looks something like this (ascii art time, bear with me) ############# ##################### #### #### ### ### ### ### (_) <-- water flow tube --> (_) [o] <-- heating element --> [o] this unit also has a thermostat clamped onto it (which I expect I will toss in the parts box for some other use, as I believe I want this element to be temperature controlled by the amount of voltage passed into it from the dimmer. depending on the maximum temperature of this heating coil, obviously hot enough to make water boil in 6 inches of tubing should I still wrap the copper tubing around this unit, or just run the fog juice directly through the water tube? If I am going to wrap the copper tubing like in the previous description should I also feed the juice through the water tube before, or after the coil? lastly, I have seen a kind of grease on the market used for heat sink thermal transfer. If I do end up coiling some copper tubing around this little horseshoe element would it help to squirt some of this grease between the copper tubing and the heating element? Although I am sure some of this discussion will be of interest to a portion of the mailing list, I would be happy to open one on one dialogues with the Halloween engineers out there, since I don't have to much time to get this all finished before Halloween. In any case I will post a follow-up letter describing what I did or did not do, and maybe help some future fog makers out. - - Subject: Immersion Heaters Source Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 16:52:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" I just got a cool 5"x8" postcard here at work today. Says "Immersion Heaters for all applications!" All types: Over the side, Circulation, Screw plug, Deep tank, Roof top, Flanged, Drop in, Drum. Made from: Stainless, Inconnel, Titanium, Copper, Quartz, Teflon, Monel, Steel. Sales. Repairs. Quick delivery. So here's the 'fo: Waage Electric Inc. 820 Colfax Ave. PO Box 337 Kenilworth, NJ 07033 1-800-922-4365 "since 1908" So maybe its not too late for some of you dry ice fog makers yet! Dust off the ole Mastercard . . . . Nathan (knowing nothing about above company except what is printed on postcard) - - Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 17:27:18 -0700 From: Devlyn.Syde at Evermore.com (Devlyn Syde) Subject: In a Fog ... I got a copy of the J&R Music World Catalog ((800)221-8180 for those of you joining in late.) They do indeed have an inexpensive ($129.95) fog machine on page 47. The Lyte Quest FG-1000 is a 700 Watt machine that delivers 3000 ft^3/minute and operates continuously for up to 2 minutes. It uses "low heating temperatures for safety." Other than having watched them being set up while doing theatrical lighting, I have no real experience with fog machines. I do recall that the fog had a mildly unpleasant smell. What I want is something that will give me a nice ground layer in my backyard (maybe 1500 ft^2) during a party, preferably without causing any of the guests to choke to death. They sell "unscented fog juice" for $28.95/gallon. I'm wondering if anyone (or everyone) out there can tell me if this machine is what I want or, if I should look for another solution. I was originally considering some sort of a dry ice rig but, would just as soon have a less labor-intensive solution. J&R also sells an "NESS EZ-1000 Portable Fog/Smoke Generator" (p. 48) for $299.95 (in the "steep" range.) It produces 2000 ft^3 of "white smoke fog" per minute but, uses "water-based fog juice" and has a remote control. - - Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 05:55:51 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: Fog: Good news and Bad Scott wrote: >Fog alert!......(bal. deleted) I forgot to mention in my other post that the fog from an ultrasonic humidifier can be blown through 5 or 6 feet of shop-vac type hose without any problem using the humidifier's built in blower. The parts inside are pretty modular and could be built into something else if needed. - - Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 05:48:30 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: Re: Fog: Good news and Bad You wrote: (lots deleted for brevity) >Fog alert! >First the good news: >Today I was at a local mall scouting for Halloween CDs that have thunder >tracks, when I went past a small boutique-ish home decor type place. Inthe front of the store was a decorator bowl with a foggy mist wafting small >post (about 1/8" in diameter) that stuck up about 1 1/2" then curved >back over. ASCII art time: Balance deleted.... Hey Scott, Sounds exactly like an ultrasonic transducer. I used an ultrasonic humidifier (1 to 2 gal. a day) in my setup for a couple of years, I think it was $40.00 at Wal-Mart. I've looked into big ultrasonic nozzles that can mist one liter of water a minute, unfortunately the nozzle and power supply runs $1,500.00 plus. - - Subject: Re: Fog machine recommendations Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 19:19:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan Kahn" > > Okay, I'm ready to buy a fog machine. > > Please email me good/bad experiences you've had, > if you prefer propolyne glycol or C02, if > you used it indoors/outdoors. > D.D. here on the list has had excellent results with a machine he bought from J&R Music World for $129. Don't have their 800# handy though . . . - - Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 14:29:22 -0700 From: milwiron at ix.netcom.com (D.D. ) Subject: RE: Fog Machine building questions I lost the original title of your post. DOH! You Wrote: (parts deleted for brevity) >Technical dialogue of fog machine: >I have read the descriptions of building your own fog >machine that has been distributed over this list and after >careful consideration I have decided to attempt building one >of these myself. >I need some details about the fog machines operation, and >then have some ideas I haven't seen discussed yet on the list >that I want to run by the experts out there. >Questions: > What temperature should the heating element run at? >(watts doesn't tell me much about it) Heating element temp. can be very different than your coil and fluid temps. (See fluid temp. below.) Your right, watts won't tell you much, but the instructions posted on "running" will tell you if your getting the right kind of fog. Wattage will determine the basic amount of fluid you can vaporize per given period. > At what temperature does the fog juice vaporize >(approximate), i.e. This depends on your glycol mixture, generally 180C. to 240C. There is also a post in the archives on glycols and their boiling points, the concept of burning glycols, etc. try to read it if you can find it. There is a lot of conversation in the theater industry on the overheating and burning of glycols, safety and whether you can really burn much glycol in an unpressurized, short, mono-tube system. > how much tube does it have to run through before it >becomes smoke? This is dependent on many variables... Fluid feed rate, internal tube surface area, tube temp., glycol mixture, etc. > Does the heating of the fog juice have to be gradual, or >would a quick heating to vaporization temperature work as >well? Most fog machines are mono-tube, flash boilers with little pressure build up, quick vaporization is all your going to get. > Should the fog juice vaporize before it leaves the coil, or >will it dribble on the hot element and smoke at that time? If it spits or dribbles fluid, the coil is too cold, too hot and the fog gets a blue tint. >Ideas: > I took apart an old "Mr Coffee" automatic drip coffee >maker and found > a kinda horseshoe shaped heating element molded to >about 6 inches of > depending on the maximum temperature of this heating >coil, obviously hot enough to make water boil in 6 inches of >tubing should I still wrap the > copper tubing around this unit, or just run the fog juice >directly through the water tube? > If I am going to wrap the copper tubing like in the >previous description should I also feed the juice through the >water tube before, or after the coil? Your on your own here, I doubt if the coffee pot will give you enough heat transfer. Most of the internals of these pots are aluminum, you need a thermostat! 3/16 dia. copper tube needs 1/2" to 5/8" min. diameter to wrap without collapsing. > lastly, I have seen a kind of grease on the market used for >heat sink thermal transfer. If I do end up coiling some >copper tubing around this little horseshoe element would it >help to squirt some of this grease between the copper tubing >and the heating element? This will greatly help your heat transfer, if the grease is rated for the temps. involved. Be sure to not leave any heating unit such as this unattended and build in a thermostat and thermofuse. And... commercial units are available for $120.00 to $130.00, not a bad deal at all. - -